What happenes to an Arahant after death?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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piotr
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What happenes to an Arahant after death?

Post by piotr »

Hi,

What Happenes to an Arahant After Death?
A Dialogue between Bhikkhu Bodhi and B. Alan Wallace
  • The relationship between nibbāna and consciousness was a topic of heated discussion among us Western monks in Sri Lanka, and our position in relation to this problem divided us into opposing camps. Though I have pondered the issue for long years, I have to admit I don’t have a clear solution to the problem. Perhaps the source of perplexity lies in Western modes of thinking. But maybe not. My teacher, Ven. Balangoda Ananda Maitreya, used to tell me how his own interpretation of nibbāna came close to the Advaita Vedantin understanding of brahman (with some differences), and in this respect, he said, he disagreed with those Sri Lankan scholar-monks who considered nibbāna to be mere cessation.

    – Bhikkhu Bodhi
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Re: What happenes to an Arahant after death?

Post by LXNDR »

piotr wrote:
  • Ven. Balangoda Ananda Maitreya, used to tell me how his own interpretation of nibbāna came close to the Advaita Vedantin understanding of brahman (with some differences), and in this respect, he said, he disagreed with those Sri Lankan scholar-monks who considered nibbāna to be mere cessation.

    – Bhikkhu Bodhi

ve-ery interesting
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Re: What happenes to an Arahant after death?

Post by martinfrank »

Dear Piotr

I know that you are most learned and respect you. But isn't "What happens to an Arahant after death?" explained sufficiently in Saṃyutta Nikāya 44 / Khema and many similar discourses?

http://suttacentral.net/en/sn44.1

If Lord Buddha set it down as not-declared, who are we to question him?

With greatest respect, what are Bhikkhu Bodhi and B. Alan Wallace trying to say? How can they discuss something further which has been set aside by Lord Buddha as not-declared?

Lord Buddha taught us how to find it out ourselves, didn't he?

May all beings be happy!

Martin
The Noble Eightfold Path: Proposed to all, imposed on none.
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Re: What happenes to an Arahant after death?

Post by tiltbillings »

I have in my reading gotten just this far:
    • BAW: Thank you for clarifying this. This is one point where the Mahayana and Theravada
      traditions differ, for in the former, nibbāna is equated with śūnyatā, or emptiness, which is the
      ultimate reality without which the relative reality of saṃsāra could not exist.
I find this an interesting, if not a shocking statement . I thought BAW came out of a Gelugpa point of view. If śūnyatā is an ultimate reality, taking Nagarjuna seriously, it is not an "ultimate reality" in terms of being/non-being, existence/non/existence. (See the Kaccaayanagotto Sutta which is directly mentioned Nagarjuna's major work, the Mūlamadhyamakakārikā.)

Basically, what is ultimately real, because the nature of paṭiccasamuppāda, is that both samsara and nibbana/bodhi share the same descriptive quality of being empty of any independent being-ness/ontic object-ness. The Madhyamakins, the followers of Nagarjunsa, talk about the emptiness of emptiness to drive home the point that śūnyatā is not some sort of ontic reality.

But I shall read on in this dialogue.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

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Re: What happenes to an Arahant after death?

Post by SarathW »

I am more interest in finding what is an Arahant before his/her death!
Has any one in this forum seen or heard of an Arahant who is fitting to their understanding of Nirvana?
===============
When Visaka question "What is the other side of the unbinding?"
Ven Dhammadinna said "You are going too far Visaka"
=========

Even with that warning our scholars are still wasting their time on this subject.
How anyone can explained an unconditioned reality with conditioned words?

By the way thanks for the link and I will read it latter.
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Re: What happenes to an Arahant after death?

Post by Zom »

This is what I can cite speaking about the essense of this dialogue:

“Suppose, bhikkhus, a dog tied up on a leash was bound to a strong post or pillar. If it walks, it walks close to that post or pillar. If it stands, it stands close to that post or pillar. If it sits down, it sits down close to that post or pillar. If it lies down, it lies down close to that post or pillar. So too, bhikkhus, the uninstructed worldling regards consciousness thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self.’

Bhikkhus, the uninstructed worldling might experience revulsion towards this body composed of the four great elements; he might become dispassionate towards it and be liberated from it. For what reason? Because growth and decline is seen in this body composed of the four great elements, it is seen being taken up and laid aside. Therefore the uninstructed worldling might experience revulsion towards this body composed of the four great elements; he might become dispassionate towards it and be liberated from it. But, bhikkhus, as to that which is called ‘mind’ and ‘mentality’ and ‘consciousness’ —the uninstructed worldling is unable to experience revulsion towards it, unable to become dispassionate towards it and be liberated from it. For what reason? Because for a long time this has been held to by him, appropriated, and grasped thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self.’ Therefore the uninstructed worldling is unable to experience revulsion towards it, unable to become dispassionate towards it and be liberated from it.


8-)
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Re: What happenes to an Arahant after death?

Post by Zom »

I know that you are most learned and respect you. But isn't "What happens to an Arahant after death?" explained sufficiently in Saṃyutta Nikāya 44 / Khema and many similar discourses?
You'd better took some another suttas that clarify this question. For example, Yamaka (http://suttacentral.net/en/sn22.85) or Anuraddha -- (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html) as well as SN 41.3, SN 24.15, 16, 17, 18 and some more from SN 44.3-6.

Reading these carefully can help to see the answer -- Buddha does not speak on these 4 "tathagata questions" simply because every one of them implies the Self Idea -- and the Blessed One didn't want to assume it. That's the one and only reason why he leaved it undeclared -- and not because "arahant after death is indescribable" as some may think.
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Re: What happenes to an Arahant after death?

Post by Boris »

Zom wrote:Reading these carefully can help to see the answer -- Buddha does not speak on these 4 "tathagata questions" simply because every one of them implies the Self Idea -- and the Blessed One didn't want to assume it. That's the one and only reason why he leaved it undeclared -- and not because "arahant after death is indescribable" as some may think.
It's perhaps need additional remark that Tathagata is indescribable even now and here, since any description base on namarupa, which is a realm of Death from which Tathagata is liberated.
Thus far, Ānanda, may one be born or age or die or fall or arise, thus far is there a way of designation, thus far is there a way of language, thus far is there a way of description, thus far is there a sphere of understanding, thus far the round proceeds as manifestation in a situation,—so far, that is to say, as there is name-&-matter together with consciousness.
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Re: What happenes to an Arahant after death?

Post by Ben »

piotr wrote:Hi,

What Happenes to an Arahant After Death?
A Dialogue between Bhikkhu Bodhi and B. Alan Wallace
  • The relationship between nibbāna and consciousness was a topic of heated discussion among us Western monks in Sri Lanka, and our position in relation to this problem divided us into opposing camps. Though I have pondered the issue for long years, I have to admit I don’t have a clear solution to the problem. Perhaps the source of perplexity lies in Western modes of thinking. But maybe not. My teacher, Ven. Balangoda Ananda Maitreya, used to tell me how his own interpretation of nibbāna came close to the Advaita Vedantin understanding of brahman (with some differences), and in this respect, he said, he disagreed with those Sri Lankan scholar-monks who considered nibbāna to be mere cessation.

    – Bhikkhu Bodhi
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Thank you Piotr, that was excellent.
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Re: What happenes to an Arahant after death?

Post by Ceisiwr »

The question itself is meaningless. Any talk of existence or non-existence of an arahant after death is actually grounded in identification with the aggregates. It's the same as trying to pin down "who" or "what" the arahant is in life.


Because you can't pin down an arahant in life, since he is not body, feelings etc, then you can define "him" after life, since there is "no one" there.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: What happenes to an Arahant after death?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
clw_uk wrote:The question itself is meaningless. Any talk of existence or non-existence of an arahant after death is actually grounded in identification with the aggregates. It's the same as trying to pin down "who" or "what" the arahant is in life. Because you can't pin down an arahant in life, since he is not body, feelings etc, then you can define "him" after life, since there is "no one" there.
That much is true, and ought to be the starting point for any such discussion... however it doesn't necessarily close off the possibility of a post-parinibbana "experience". By way of comparison, the Buddha "experienced" many things inbetween his enlightenment and his death, despite not identifying with the aggregates or being pinned down.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: What happenes to an Arahant after death?

Post by Ceisiwr »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
clw_uk wrote:The question itself is meaningless. Any talk of existence or non-existence of an arahant after death is actually grounded in identification with the aggregates. It's the same as trying to pin down "who" or "what" the arahant is in life. Because you can't pin down an arahant in life, since he is not body, feelings etc, then you can define "him" after life, since there is "no one" there.
That much is true, and ought to be the starting point for any such discussion... however it doesn't necessarily close off the possibility of a post-parinibbana "experience". By way of comparison, the Buddha "experienced" many things inbetween his enlightenment and his death, despite not identifying with the aggregates or being pinned down.

Metta,
Retro. :)


All I can say is if you can't pin down an arahant right now, then you can pin "him" down after death.

It's a pointless question, because we aren't awake we are caught up in thinking in terms of self and other, existence and non - existence, which is dukkha.


As for the arahant it is also a meaningless question. I doubt the arahant would even think in terms of existence or non-existence. The question just wouldn't come up in "his" mind, since the basis for its generation "craving > clinging > me" has been cut off at the root, thus never asking the question or viewing the world in such terms.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: What happenes to an Arahant after death?

Post by alan »

He flies away like a bird that leaves no trace through the sky.
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Re: What happenes to an Arahant after death?

Post by Boris »

"Just as a flame blown by the wind's force,
Upaslva," said the Blessed One,
"Goes out, and designation applies to it no more,
So too the Silent Sage, being freed from the name-body,
Goes out, and designation applies to him no more."
"Then when he has thus gone out, does he exist no more?
Or is he made immortal for eternity?
So may it please the Sage to make this plain to me,
Because it is a state that he has understood."
"There is no measuring of one who has gone out,
Upaslva,' said the Blessed One,
"And nothing of him whereby one could say aught of him;
For when all ideas have been abolished,
All ways of saying, too, have been abolished."
Sn. 5:7
Ven Nanamoli translation
'With entire fading out and cessation, friend, of the six contact-bases, there is something else' – saying thus, one diversifies non-diversification. 'With entire fading out and cessation, friend, of the six contact-bases, there is not something else ... there both is and is not something else ... there neither is nor is not something else' – saying thus, one diversifies non-diversification. So long, friend, as the six contact-bases continue, so long diversification continues; so long as diversification continues, so long the six contact-bases continue. With entire fading out and cessation of the six contact-bases, ceasing and subsidence of diversification
.

A. IV,174 (ii, 161-2)
Ven Nanavira translation
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Re: What happenes to an Arahant after death?

Post by pulga »

'With entire fading out and cessation, friend, of the six contact-bases, there is something else' – saying thus, one diversifies non-diversification. 'With entire fading out and cessation, friend, of the six contact-bases, there is not something else ... there both is and is not something else ... there neither is nor is not something else' – saying thus, one diversifies non-diversification. So long, friend, as the six contact-bases continue, so long diversification continues; so long as diversification continues, so long the six contact-bases continue. With entire fading out and cessation of the six contact-bases, ceasing and subsidence of diversification. A. IV,174 (ii, 161-2) -- Ven Nanavira translation.
Ven. Ñanavira footnotes this sutta with a passage from Sartre:
It is through human reality that multiplicity comes into the world...B&N, p. 137
http://www.nanavira.org/index.php/writi ... tas-sartre

I believe he is contending that so long as the arahat goes on living he is susceptible to papanca, only that he no longer appropriates it, and doesn't delight in it. Since he no longer appropriates it, its presence (i.e. the consciousness thereof) is non-indicative, i.e. it doesn't result in a self-consciousness in either reflexion or reflection). Liberation from papanca requires an effort on the part of the living arahat by the focusing the mind on its cessation, on what Ven. Ñanavira refers to as the “singularity of the real” (cf. SN Mano, footnote b).
‘Nip­pa­pañ­cā­rā­massā­yaṃ, bhikkhave, dhammo nip­pa­pañ­ca­ratino, nāyaṃ dhammo papañcārāmassa papañcaratino’ti, iti kho panetaṃ vuttaṃ. Kiñcetaṃ paṭicca vuttaṃ? Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno papañcanirodhe cittaṃ pakkhandati pasīdati santiṭṭhati vimuccati.

“When it was said: ‘This Dhamma is for one who delights in non-proliferation, who takes delight in non-proliferation, not for one who delights in proliferation, who takes delight in proliferation,’ with reference to what was this said? Here, a bhikkhu’s mind launches out upon the cessation of proliferation, becomes placid, settles down, and is liberated in it. AN 8.30
With the breakup of the arahat's body the six-bases cease for good, as does their presence, i.e. the consciousness that is indelibly linked to their being.
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
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