What else could the Middle Way be?
Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:09 pm
What else could the Middle Way be?
So, i suggest that the middle way, as it was originally spoken and felt, is not exactly recorded in the texts.
Now - my question is could there be any deeper or other meaning to the middle way, and if there was something we had all been missing, what could it be?
So, referring to wikipedia, we see under the middle way: a dispassionate approach between the extremes of austerities and sensual indulgence; and the philosophical ideas of dependent origination as the way between eternalism and annihilationism.
The only other indication in the texts is that the middle way IS the eightfold path.
So, i turn to the Mahasatipatthana, because here i find a detailed version of the eightfold path. And we see for example that right understanding is not just a general understanding of everything and anything .. it is specifically an understanding of Dukkha.
Every step of the eightfoldpath has a detailed explanation and specific meaning ... the simple list of the eightfold path, (given, for example, in every translation of the Sermon at Bernares) gives a distorted picture - these are not just generalised ideas on life ... but lets just keep to the main point.
My question : Is there any possibility of another maybe more significant meaning in the middle way which we, i, have been missing for years, ... and if so, what could it be?
And the 6th step right effort, says simply to me : Right Effort : To generate a desire for wholesome healthy states of mind.
Now : A Note : No word in the Mahasatipatthana seems so variously translated as this passage in the 6th step, Right Effort :
"generates an intention ... to attain wholesome states of mind". (Jotika & Dhamminda)
"a monk generates desire ... for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities" (Does Thanissaro Bhikkhu think "skillful qualities" are the only purpose of Right Effort?)
Old translations give "For arousing of salutory states that have not yet arisen he rouses his will,".
And the French gives : "un bhikkhu génère la volonté ... de développer les états d'esprits sains".
I give the full translations underneath for your consideration.
Naturally, if the correct translation is will, then we are talking about old fashioned discipline, ... however generating a DESIRE for wholesome states is (or could be) EXACTLY a very precise and clever MIDDLE WAY between the extremes of indulgence and abstinence.
my feeling is that present day buddhism is often connected with a passionless distance and detachment. Generating a desire for wholesome states gives it a vitality - humanity ... etc etc ...
ok so, what does anyone think?
Robin
References
"And what is right effort? There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent ... for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen" (Thanissaro Bhikkhu)
"And what, bhikkhus, is Right Effort? ... He generates an intention, makes effort, rouses energy, applies his mind, and strives ardently to attain wholesome states of mind that have not yet arisen. He generates an intention, makes effort, rouses energy, applies his mind, and strives ardently to maintain the wholesome states of mind that have arisen, to prevent their lapsing, to increase them, to cause them to grow, and to completely develop them. This, bhikkhus, is called Right Effort." (U Jotika & U Dhamminda)
"And what is right effort? Herein a monk ... For arousing of salutory states that have not yet arisen he rouses his will, makes effort, stirs up his energy, applies his mind to it and strives." (Nyanaponika Thera 1969)
Maha-satipatthana Sutta: The Great Frames of Reference translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mahasatipatthana Sutta translated by U Jotika & U Dhamminda
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/mahasati.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/mahasati.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Heart of Buddhist Meditation, Nyanaponika Thera, Rider Pocket Editions (1969) http://www.khamkoo.com/uploads/9/0/0/4/ ... tation.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And where many english translations seem often to copy each other - this French translation gives independant translations, (and is the only completely full translation of the Mahasatipatthana I have found – together with the Pali - translator unknown).
http://www.buddha-vacana.org/fr/sutta/digha/dn22.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and here we find the idea of "healthy mind states"
"Et qu'est-ce, bhikkhus, que l'effort juste? En cela, bhikkhus, un bhikkhu génère la volonté ... de développer les états d'esprits sains qui ne sont pas encore apparus en lui, et pour cela il fait un effort résolu, il stimule son énergie, y applique son esprit et s'y efforce."
for which google translator gives : "And what, monks, is right effort? In this, monks, a monk generates the will of ... develop healthy minds states that have not yet appeared in it, and for that he madea determined effort, it stimulates its energy, it applies his mind and tries it."
la volonté = willingness ... is there someone there who really understands french and the meaning of this word?
so again, Id be intersted to hear what anyone thinks.
Robin
So, i suggest that the middle way, as it was originally spoken and felt, is not exactly recorded in the texts.
Now - my question is could there be any deeper or other meaning to the middle way, and if there was something we had all been missing, what could it be?
So, referring to wikipedia, we see under the middle way: a dispassionate approach between the extremes of austerities and sensual indulgence; and the philosophical ideas of dependent origination as the way between eternalism and annihilationism.
The only other indication in the texts is that the middle way IS the eightfold path.
So, i turn to the Mahasatipatthana, because here i find a detailed version of the eightfold path. And we see for example that right understanding is not just a general understanding of everything and anything .. it is specifically an understanding of Dukkha.
Every step of the eightfoldpath has a detailed explanation and specific meaning ... the simple list of the eightfold path, (given, for example, in every translation of the Sermon at Bernares) gives a distorted picture - these are not just generalised ideas on life ... but lets just keep to the main point.
My question : Is there any possibility of another maybe more significant meaning in the middle way which we, i, have been missing for years, ... and if so, what could it be?
And the 6th step right effort, says simply to me : Right Effort : To generate a desire for wholesome healthy states of mind.
Now : A Note : No word in the Mahasatipatthana seems so variously translated as this passage in the 6th step, Right Effort :
"generates an intention ... to attain wholesome states of mind". (Jotika & Dhamminda)
"a monk generates desire ... for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities" (Does Thanissaro Bhikkhu think "skillful qualities" are the only purpose of Right Effort?)
Old translations give "For arousing of salutory states that have not yet arisen he rouses his will,".
And the French gives : "un bhikkhu génère la volonté ... de développer les états d'esprits sains".
I give the full translations underneath for your consideration.
Naturally, if the correct translation is will, then we are talking about old fashioned discipline, ... however generating a DESIRE for wholesome states is (or could be) EXACTLY a very precise and clever MIDDLE WAY between the extremes of indulgence and abstinence.
my feeling is that present day buddhism is often connected with a passionless distance and detachment. Generating a desire for wholesome states gives it a vitality - humanity ... etc etc ...
ok so, what does anyone think?
Robin
References
"And what is right effort? There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent ... for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen" (Thanissaro Bhikkhu)
"And what, bhikkhus, is Right Effort? ... He generates an intention, makes effort, rouses energy, applies his mind, and strives ardently to attain wholesome states of mind that have not yet arisen. He generates an intention, makes effort, rouses energy, applies his mind, and strives ardently to maintain the wholesome states of mind that have arisen, to prevent their lapsing, to increase them, to cause them to grow, and to completely develop them. This, bhikkhus, is called Right Effort." (U Jotika & U Dhamminda)
"And what is right effort? Herein a monk ... For arousing of salutory states that have not yet arisen he rouses his will, makes effort, stirs up his energy, applies his mind to it and strives." (Nyanaponika Thera 1969)
Maha-satipatthana Sutta: The Great Frames of Reference translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mahasatipatthana Sutta translated by U Jotika & U Dhamminda
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/mahasati.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/mahasati.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Heart of Buddhist Meditation, Nyanaponika Thera, Rider Pocket Editions (1969) http://www.khamkoo.com/uploads/9/0/0/4/ ... tation.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And where many english translations seem often to copy each other - this French translation gives independant translations, (and is the only completely full translation of the Mahasatipatthana I have found – together with the Pali - translator unknown).
http://www.buddha-vacana.org/fr/sutta/digha/dn22.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and here we find the idea of "healthy mind states"
"Et qu'est-ce, bhikkhus, que l'effort juste? En cela, bhikkhus, un bhikkhu génère la volonté ... de développer les états d'esprits sains qui ne sont pas encore apparus en lui, et pour cela il fait un effort résolu, il stimule son énergie, y applique son esprit et s'y efforce."
for which google translator gives : "And what, monks, is right effort? In this, monks, a monk generates the will of ... develop healthy minds states that have not yet appeared in it, and for that he madea determined effort, it stimulates its energy, it applies his mind and tries it."
la volonté = willingness ... is there someone there who really understands french and the meaning of this word?
so again, Id be intersted to hear what anyone thinks.
Robin