Doubts about existence of ghosts & super natural beings

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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subaru
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Doubts about existence of ghosts & super natural beings

Post by subaru »

Edited after further research: Please refer to Majjhima Nikaya MN60: Apannaka Sutta: A Safe Bet for sutta's position regarding this matter
I do not have enough knowledge about this matter.. it is not my intention to convince you one way or another, Please make your own conclusion by refering to the Buddha's words and make your own conclusion
It is my mis-fortune that I have not yet develope faith in the existence of ghost & super natural beings. Although these beings have been mentioned in the Suttas, so to avoid inner conflict, I opted to believe those are metaphorical descriptions.

However I do not know how to handle the conflict in my mind when a living member of the Sangha declares that he has seen such beings.

I pay sincere homage to the Buddha , Dhamma and the Sangha, but please help me how to resolve this conflict when my doubt arise.

Thank You
Last edited by subaru on Sun Oct 18, 2015 7:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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SarathW
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Re: Doubts about existence of ghosts & super natural beings

Post by SarathW »

I have seen super normal beings at least six time in my life. ( White smoke - sitting in my chair, coming out of a match box and coming our of my car's steering wheel)
I have heard at least two account of reliable people talking about similar things. ( in hospitals)
I still think it is some thing to do with the abnormality in my eyes. (I have a very good eye sight and do not ware specs)
However I believe there are ghosts kind beings around us.
:shrug:
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dhammacoustic
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Re: Doubts about existence of ghosts & super natural beings

Post by dhammacoustic »

No, they are not metaphorical, there are more worlds than the one you can hold in your hand.

Those beings are not supernatural, they are natural, they live in the same universe as you, only in subtler dimensions. Mastery over ākāsadhātu is necessary, in order to communicate with such beings. There are also tons of practices, alchemical methods, rituals, etc.

Nevertheless, they can't help you on the path.

Oneself is one's own refuge,
who else indeed, could be the refuge?
By good training of oneself
one gains a refuge hard to gain.

-Dhp 160

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subaru
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Re: Doubts about existence of ghosts & super natural beings

Post by subaru »

SarathW wrote:I have seen super normal beings at least six time in my life. ( White smoke - sitting in my chair, coming out of a match box and coming our of my car's steering wheel)
I have heard at least two account of reliable people talking about similar things. ( in hospitals)
I still think it is some thing to do with the abnormality in my eyes. (I have a very good eye sight and do not ware specs)
However I believe there are ghosts kind beings around us.
:shrug:
You are in luck then.. you do not need to reconcile with these doubts like I have to..

Have you tried to communicate with them? Have you tried to get to know them?
Do you know if they can see you?
What do I need to do to see them?
I have dreamt of ghost, but I suspect those images in my dream were the results of the ghost stories that we told to me and perhaps those in books and movies that I read/watched.

I have not seen one when I am awake... but even if I eventually see one, I need more than seeing to convince that they really exist. Because I know that the neural network in my brain might be playing tricks with me. If they can't adhere to the law of physics, they need to let me know what law do they adhere to..
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SarathW
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Re: Doubts about existence of ghosts & super natural beings

Post by SarathW »

Have you tried to communicate with them? No. the encounter was so brief say 3 seconds.
Have you tried to get to know them? No and I do not intend to. However I pass merits to my dead relatives.
Do you know if they can see you? Not sure.
What do I need to do to see them? Do not waste your valuable time. Practice the path.
I have dreamt of ghost?. I do not.
:)
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subaru
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Re: Doubts about existence of ghosts & super natural beings

Post by subaru »

dhammacoustic wrote: Nevertheless, they can't help you on the path.
Well said :anjali:

Even if they try to help me, I will have to verify it myself anyway.

However, If I see one and am fully convinced that they exist, then my confidence in the Jataka and some Suttas that make reference to such being would be elevated to a new level.

As for my doubts after hearing living monks describing such things, I suppose I shall stay clear from them for now, to prevent unwholesome doubts from arising. I have to admit, it's a rather daunting task to dispel such strong doubts

Is there any rule in Vinaya that address my issue?
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Doubts about existence of ghosts & super natural beings

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Read the biography of Ajahn Mun and see if that helps.

There really is no need to see celestial beings to understand the Dhamma properly. If we have not developed the psychic powers to see them, and don't have any mystic experiences, we may never see them. I asked many Buddhists whether they ever saw any such beings, and mostly the answer is “No.” There's also a few who claim to receive meditation instructions from celestial beings. I asked, “How do you know it's a deity and not a māra?” Psychiatric patients often hear voices in their heads, so how can we be sure that visions of spirits are reliable?

If we don't have genuine psychic powers, we have three choices:
  1. To believe based on the reliable testimony of respected monks like Ajahn Mun or by relying on the Pali texts and commentaries
  2. To dismiss them as myths, superstitions, or mere allegories for mental states.
  3. To accept that we do not know and set the question aside while we continue to investigate what we can know — the causes of suffering, and how to reduce it.
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Aloka
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Re: Doubts about existence of ghosts & super natural beings

Post by Aloka »

subaru wrote:It is my mis-fortune that I have not yet develope faith in the existence of ghost & super natural beings. Although these beings have been mentioned in the Suttas, so to avoid inner conflict, I opted to believe those are metaphorical descriptions.

However I do not know how to handle the conflict in my mind when a living member of the Sangha declares that he has seen such beings.
Hi subaru,

I've never worried about ghosts because even if they exist, I don't think they could actually hurt me. However, one can cause oneself mental sufferng, through fear and misunderstandings.

This 6 minute video of Ajahn Jayasaro talking about Ajahn Chah's fear of ghosts and how it was conquered, might be of interest:




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Last edited by Aloka on Thu Oct 15, 2015 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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subaru
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Re: Doubts about existence of ghosts & super natural beings

Post by subaru »

Aloka wrote: This 6 minute video of Ajahn Jayasaro talking about Ajahn Chah's fear of ghosts and how it was conquered, might be of interest:
Thanks so much..

I watched that video and (almost all) videos related to the Venerable Ajahn Chah, and I also have high regards for Ajahn Jayasaro.

If I remember correctly (and I verified by watching it again) Ajahn Jayasaro described Ajahn Chah's fear of spirit, there is no mention that Ajahn Chah had seen one, he heard some noises in the middle of the night, but he did not confirm what he heard. That story was about Ajahn Chah overcoming his fear of spirit, it's not about him seeing one.

Maybe I should seriously consider doing charnel ground/cemetary meditation or Asubha meditation to get to the bottom of this
Thank you for prompting my mind to be led to such beneficial thoughts :anjali:
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SarathW
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Re: Doubts about existence of ghosts & super natural beings

Post by SarathW »

Why do we have to go to a charnel ground?
We keep dead bodies in our fridges. (beef, chicken, fish etc)
People in hospital always deal with dead people.
May be my house is built on some ones grave. (say 100 years ago)
Soldiers are living in war zones with dead bodies.
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Aloka
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Re: Doubts about existence of ghosts & super natural beings

Post by Aloka »

subaru wrote: That story was about Ajahn Chah overcoming his fear of spirit, it's not about him seeing one.
Sure, but if one doesn't have any fear of ghosts then its doesn't matter if they exist or not, it wont affect ones mental state and be a source of suffering.

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Aloka
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Re: Doubts about existence of ghosts & super natural beings

Post by Aloka »

SarathW wrote: We keep dead bodies in our fridges. (beef, chicken, fish etc)
Umm..... I'm a vegetarian, so there aren't any dead bodies lurking in my fridge or cupboards!


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Pinetree
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Re: Doubts about existence of ghosts & super natural beings

Post by Pinetree »

I opted to believe those are metaphorical descriptions.
There is no need to "opt".

You don't need to worry about ghosts until you meet one. And when you do, just say "Hello" and carry on.

I mean there is no need for "drama" around the issue.
However I do not know how to handle the conflict in my mind when a living member of the Sangha declares that he has seen such beings.
Conflict isn't useful. The only thing you need to believe is that the fellow Sangha member has seen something they believe to be a ghost.
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subaru
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Re: Doubts about existence of ghosts & super natural beings

Post by subaru »

The only thing you need to believe is that the fellow Sangha member has seen something he believe to be a ghost.
Sweet !!
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Aloka
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Re: Doubts about existence of ghosts & super natural beings

Post by Aloka »

Pinetree wrote:
I opted to believe those are metaphorical descriptions.
There is no need to "opt".

You don't need to worry about ghosts until you meet one. And when you do, just say "Hello" and carry on.

I mean there is no need for "drama" around the issue.
However I do not know how to handle the conflict in my mind when a living member of the Sangha declares that he has seen such beings.
Conflict isn't useful. The only thing you need to believe is that the fellow Sangha member has seen something they believe to be a ghost.

:goodpost:
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