moral dilemma flea control & no more program??

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no mike
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moral dilemma flea control & no more program??

Post by no mike »

I have been using a generic version of "Program" that sterilizes fleas and effectively gets rid of them in my home. Now the name brand and generic versions are no longer available on Amazon. I found some on e-Bay but not available from US suppliers or mainstream retail.

If anyone has an effective way of ridding fleas from cats without "killing" the fleas; i.e., effective repellant, sterilizing, etc., I would appreciate the references!

Thank you :heart:
SarathW
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Re: moral dilemma flea control & no more program??

Post by SarathW »

Do not have pets instead help to protect wild life.
:sage:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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tiltbillings
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Re: moral dilemma flea control & no more program??

Post by tiltbillings »

no mike wrote:I have been using a generic version of "Program" that sterilizes fleas and effectively gets rid of them in my home. Now the name brand and generic versions are no longer available on Amazon. I found some on e-Bay but not available from US suppliers or mainstream retail.
There may be a very good reason for that. Best google "Program."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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no mike
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Re: moral dilemma flea control & no more program??

Post by no mike »

SarathW wrote:Do not have pets instead help to protect wild life.
:sage:
After my daughter volunteered at the shelter I agreed to let her adopt a cat. A year later we went back and got it a friend.
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no mike
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Re: moral dilemma flea control & no more program??

Post by no mike »

tiltbillings wrote:
no mike wrote:I have been using a generic version of "Program" that sterilizes fleas and effectively gets rid of them in my home. Now the name brand and generic versions are no longer available on Amazon. I found some on e-Bay but not available from US suppliers or mainstream retail.
There may be a very good reason for that. Best google "Program."
I had done that but nothing turned up.

All I can imagine is the possibility that a product that does not kill is a product that may not be successful or in high demand in the West. I found a company on eBay selling Program from Thailand. But that does not convince me that the product was never pulled off the shelf for health or safety reasons.

Are you aware of a recall, etc.?

As silly as it all sounds, this is an important matter to me. Not sure if there is a solution, but I don't like seeing these cats suffer.
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tiltbillings
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Re: moral dilemma flea control & no more program??

Post by tiltbillings »

Program kills:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lufenuron

Also, I certainly hope you do not let your cats run loose outside.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: moral dilemma flea control & no more program??

Post by tiltbillings »

no mike wrote:I have been using a generic version of "Program" that sterilizes fleas and effectively gets rid of them in my home. Now the name brand and generic versions are no longer available on Amazon. I found some on e-Bay but not available from US suppliers or mainstream retail.

If anyone has an effective way of ridding fleas from cats without "killing" the fleas; i.e., effective repellant, sterilizing, etc., I would appreciate the references!

Thank you :heart:
I just googled "program flea control" and it looks to be available in the US.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Dhammanando
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Re: moral dilemma flea control & no more program??

Post by Dhammanando »

no mike wrote:Are you aware of a recall, etc.?
Program, along with any other products containing Lufenuron, have been banned in Iceland and Sweden for the last ten years, and throughout the European Union for the last six years. The active ingredient is lethal to zooplankton.
As silly as it all sounds, this is an important matter to me. Not sure if there is a solution, but I don't like seeing these cats suffer.
I'm afraid there's no solution at present. If one is going to keep cats then one just has to bite the bullet and accept the necessity of compromising either on ahiṃsā or on one's pets' health. Even the product you've been using up to now isn't fully ahiṃsā-compatible: Lufenuron may not kill the adult fleas but it does kill their larvae.
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
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Re: moral dilemma flea control & no more program??

Post by Dhammanando »

Here's a useful chart showing all the flea-related products and what they do.

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_fl ... rison.html
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
SarathW
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Re: moral dilemma flea control & no more program??

Post by SarathW »

Bhante how do you handle this problem?
I understand you look after many homeless cats.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Dhammanando
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Re: moral dilemma flea control & no more program??

Post by Dhammanando »

SarathW wrote:Bhante how do you handle this problem?
I understand you look after many homeless cats.
Luckily I'm not faced with this dilemma. I live at the summit of a cold mountain where there aren't any fleas to speak of and the only bugs that afflict our cats and dogs are blood-sucking ticks and leeches. These are large enough that they can be manually removed without harming them.
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
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Anagarika
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Re: moral dilemma flea control & no more program??

Post by Anagarika »

Reviewing Ven. Dhammanando's excellent comments, one might then resolve ( this does not derive from Bhante's comments; these are my own) to use a product that eradicates the larvae, and then use some other means to remove the live adults without killing them. In other words, is the weight of the kamma of killing flea larvae so heavy so as to outweigh the negative effects of fleas infesting one's cats and one's home, and bringing the resultant nuisance and even illness? Use a product that kills the larvae.

One lesson that I take from the Buddha's example of the Middle Way is to avoid extremes that may be unwise or harmful. Is the killing of flea larvae a violation of the First Precept? Is a flea larvae a sentient being, such that it's killing is dark kamma? These are the questions that each of us can weigh and resolve. But given the overall need to preserve one's own health and that of the sentient companion cats, I see the weight of the killing of flea larvae as incredibly minor if not completely neutral.

If the product you use has environmental concerns, then be sure to use it in a way that does not cause unintended harmful consequences, even to zooplankton, a species that includes jellyfish ( I did not know this before...).
SarathW
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Re: moral dilemma flea control & no more program??

Post by SarathW »

Getting rid of the flea or the larvae is the result of anger.
Why can't we consider fleas as a pet?
Why do we consider a cat is more cuter than a flea?
:thinking:
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Ben
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Re: moral dilemma flea control & no more program??

Post by Ben »

One of the benefits of a hairless cat is that they don't normally attract flees. When they do, they can be seen easily and removed without harming them.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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NotMe
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Re: moral dilemma flea control & no more program??

Post by NotMe »

Ben wrote:One of the benefits of a hairless cat is that they don't normally attract flees. When they do, they can be seen easily and removed without harming them.
My wife said: 'ask him: "How do you ever catch them? They jump!" '

[i'duh askd: the fleeing fleas feasibly flood flowingly? how the flock? Factual or flatulence?]

But jest said, "Yes, dear."

Balls in your court, Ben!

signed
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metta

edit to add: Or did you mean without harming the cat?
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