In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?

In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

not applicable, there is no rebirth, it is annihilation for all
4
3%
no more becoming, non-existence as we know it but not annihilation since there is no self
60
40%
existence in a buddha-field / realm
7
5%
pantheism
7
5%
citta continues in paranibbana
14
9%
a subtle existence that is ineffable, inexpressible
25
17%
don't know or agnostic about it, set-aside for now
33
22%
 
Total votes: 150

User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 11074
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by Ceisiwr »

SteRo wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:31 pm Parinibbana is a mere concept. Couldn't find this tick option.
Nibbana is not a mere concept.
"Because of attachment to doctrines one approaches and refutes,
For those unattached, how can they dispute?
Not because self or no-self are said to be true,
He has only shaken off all harmful views."


Duṭṭhaṭṭhaka Sutta
SteRo
Posts: 4417
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am
Location: अ धीः

Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by SteRo »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:33 pm
SteRo wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:31 pm Parinibbana is a mere concept. Couldn't find this tick option.
Nibbana is not a mere concept.
:strawman:
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ It's definitely not science but science may provide guidelines nevertheless.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 11074
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by Ceisiwr »

SteRo wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:35 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:33 pm
SteRo wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:31 pm Parinibbana is a mere concept. Couldn't find this tick option.
Nibbana is not a mere concept.
:strawman:
It’s not a strawman as they are one in the same thing.
"Because of attachment to doctrines one approaches and refutes,
For those unattached, how can they dispute?
Not because self or no-self are said to be true,
He has only shaken off all harmful views."


Duṭṭhaṭṭhaka Sutta
SteRo
Posts: 4417
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am
Location: अ धीः

Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by SteRo »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:40 pm
SteRo wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:35 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:33 pm

Nibbana is not a mere concept.
:strawman:
It’s not a strawman as they are one in the same thing.
:strawman:
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ It's definitely not science but science may provide guidelines nevertheless.
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 3799
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by Coëmgenu »

:redherring: :strawman: :rolleye: :oops: :strawman: :strawman: :computerproblem: :toilet:

You are all welcome.
Then, the monks sang this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and rots.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.

(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 13737
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by DNS »

mikenz66 wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 7:48 pm
DNS wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 3:13 pm It's often differentiated as:
Nibbana can be obtained while one is alive, with effluents.
Parinibbana is Nibbana without effluents.
According to Bhikkhu Bodhi's analysis this is a misreading.
https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.p ... 40#p209545

Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:
NIBBĀNA, PARINIBBĀNA

As is well known, nibbāna literally means the extinction of a fire. In popular works on Buddhism, nibbāna plain and simple is often taken to signify Nibbāna as experienced in life, parinibbāna Nibbāna attained at death. This is a misinterpretation.
...
The suttas distinguish between two elements of Nibbāna: the Nibbāna element with residue (sa-upādisesa-nibbānadhātu) and the Nibbāna element without residue (anupādisesanibbānadhātu )—the residue (upādisesa) being the compound of the five aggregates produced by prior craving and kamma (It 38–39). The former is the extinction of lust, hatred, and delusion attained by the arahant while alive; the latter is the remainderless cessation of all conditioned existence that occurs with the arahant’s death.
...
There is quite a lot more detail in Bhikkhu Bodhi's note...

:heart:
Mike
And yet, he uses it again right there in his explanation:
Nibbāna element with residue (sa-upādisesa-nibbānadhātu) and the Nibbāna element without residue (anupādisesanibbānadhātu )—the residue (upādisesa) being the compound of the five aggregates produced by prior craving and kamma (It 38–39). The former is the extinction of lust, hatred, and delusion attained by the arahant while alive; the latter is the remainderless cessation of all conditioned existence that occurs with the arahant’s death.
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 18165
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by mikenz66 »

DNS wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:48 pm And yet, he uses it again right there in his explanation:
Nibbāna element with residue (sa-upādisesa-nibbānadhātu) and the Nibbāna element without residue (anupādisesanibbānadhātu )—the residue (upādisesa) being the compound of the five aggregates produced by prior craving and kamma (It 38–39). The former is the extinction of lust, hatred, and delusion attained by the arahant while alive; the latter is the remainderless cessation of all conditioned existence that occurs with the arahant’s death.
On the contrary, he's saying that instead of using the terms "nibbāna" and "parinibbāna" the appropriate terms are "nibbāna with residue" and "nibbāna without residue".

Much more explanation in the link I gave: https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.p ... 40#p209545

:heart:
Mike
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 13737
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by DNS »

mikenz66 wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:55 pm
DNS wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:48 pm And yet, he uses it again right there in his explanation:
Nibbāna element with residue (sa-upādisesa-nibbānadhātu) and the Nibbāna element without residue (anupādisesanibbānadhātu )—the residue (upādisesa) being the compound of the five aggregates produced by prior craving and kamma (It 38–39). The former is the extinction of lust, hatred, and delusion attained by the arahant while alive; the latter is the remainderless cessation of all conditioned existence that occurs with the arahant’s death.
On the contrary, he's saying that instead of using the terms "nibbāna" and "parinibbāna" the appropriate terms are "nibbāna with residue" and "nibbāna without residue".

Much more explanation in the link I gave: https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.p ... 40#p209545

:heart:
Mike
Oh, okay, thanks, then it's just about the label, the meanings are pretty much the same.
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 18165
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by mikenz66 »

DNS wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 9:00 pm Oh, okay, thanks, then it's just about the label, the meanings are pretty much the same.
Well, kind of, but why use the incorrect label? Besides, that link (which is from BB's SN introduction), discusses noun and verb forms...

:heart:
Mike
User avatar
Mahabrahma
Posts: 663
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:02 am

Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by Mahabrahma »

Parinirvana can be considered a provisional term, but the general consensus from what I understand is that it is when one has finally left the Saha world, forever, in a blowing out of the aggregates and a decision to no longer return to it. It has a very important meaning in Buddhism.

A lot of people say in a form of Expedient Means that they are about to enter Mahaparinirvana when in fact they are still going to stay in the Saha world for many rebirths, sometimes even for countless kalpas, because this is an Expedient Means Buddhas use to make people seek after them more when they are still present in this world, as well as a call for others to enter Parinirvana and not dwell on staying in the Saha world. However many great Buddhas and Bodhisattvas stay in the Saha world for extraordinarily long periods of time to help others get out of the suffering within it. Buddhist Metta is beginningless and infinite, and will go on forever.
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 5700
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by cappuccino »

Mahabrahma wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:46 amHowever many great Buddhas and Bodhisattvas stay in the world for extraordinarily long periods of time to help others get out of the suffering within it.
Buddha isn't here, nor is he coming back.
Art requires philosophy, just as philosophy requires art. Otherwise, what would become of beauty? ―Paul Gauguin
Good for Your Soul
User avatar
Mahabrahma
Posts: 663
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:02 am

Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by Mahabrahma »

cappuccino wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 3:50 am
Mahabrahma wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:46 amHowever many great Buddhas and Bodhisattvas stay in the world for extraordinarily long periods of time to help others get out of the suffering within it.
Buddha isn't here, nor is he coming back.
You can disbelieve it, but that will not be helpful. Try to read information about how long He has been here and for how long He will be here in the Sixteenth Chapter of the Lotus Sutra. You can choose to reject it, or disbelieve it, but ask yourself whether you are doing such a thing on faith in the Buddha, or something else. I am asking you to believe in the Buddha and His words.
At that time the Buddha spoke to the Bodhisattvas and all the great assembly: "Good men, you must believe and understand the truthful words of the Thus Come One." And again he said to the great assembly: You must believe and understand the truthful words of the Thus Come One." And once more he said to the great assembly: "You must believe and understand the truthful words of the Thus Come One."

At that time the bodhisattvas and the great assembly, with Maitreya as their leader, pressed their palms together and addressed the Buddha, saying: "World-Honored One, we beg you to explain. We will believe and accept the Buddha's words." They spoke in this manner three times, and then said once more: "We beg you to explain it. We will believe and accept the Buddha's words."

At that time the World-Honored One, seeing that the bodhisattvas repeated their request three times and more, spoke to them, saying: "You must listen carefully and hear of the Thus Come One's secret and his transcendental powers. In all the worlds the heavenly and human beings and asuras all believe that the present Shakyamuni Buddha, after leaving the palace of the Shakyas, seated himself in the place of practice not far from the city of Gaya and there attained annuttara-samyak-sambodhi. But good men, it has been immeasurable, boundless hundreds, thousands, ten thousands, millions of nayutas of kalpas since I in fact attained Buddhahood.

"Suppose a person were to take five hundred, a thousand, ten thousand, a million nayuta asamkhya thousand-million-fold worlds and grind them to dust. Then, moving eastward, each time he passes five hundred, a thousand, ten thousand, a million nayuta asamkhya worlds he drops a particle of dust. He continues eastward in this way until he has finished dropping all the particles. Good men, what is your opinion? Can the total number of all these worlds be imagined or calculated?"

The bodhisattva Maitreya and the others said to the Buddha: "World-Honored One, these worlds are immeasurable, boundless--one cannot calculate their number, nor does the mind have the power to encompass them. Even all the voice-hearers and pratyekabuddhas with their wisdom free of outflows could not imagine or understand how many there are. Although we abide in the stage of avivartika, we cannot comprehend such a matter. World-Honored One, these worlds are immeasurable and boundless."

At that time the Buddha said to the multitude of great bodhisattvas: "Good men, now I will state this to you clearly. Suppose all these worlds, whether they received a particle of dust or not, are once more reduced to dust. Let one particle represent one kalpa. The time that has passed since I attained Buddhahood surpasses this by a hundred, a thousand, ten thousand, a million nayuta asamkhya kalpas.

"Ever since then I have been constantly in this saha world, preaching the Law, teaching and converting, and elsewhere I have led and benefited living beings in hundreds, thousands, ten thousands, millions of nayutas and asamkhyas of lands.

"Good men, during that time I have spoken about the Buddha Burning Torch and others, and described how they entered nirvana. All this I employed as an expedient means to make distinctions.

"Good men, if there are living beings who come to me, I employ my Buddha eye to observe their faith and to see if their other faculties are keen or dull, and then depending upon how receptive they are to salvation, I appear in different places and preach to them under different names, and describe the length of time during which my teachings will be effective. Sometimes when I make my appearance I say that I am about to enter nirvana, and also employ different expedient means to preach the subtle and wonderful Law, thus causing living beings to awaken joyful minds.

"Good men, the Thus Come One observes how among living beings there are those who delight in a little Law, meager in virtue and heavy with defilement. For such persons I describe how in my youth I left my household and attained anuttara-samyak-sambodhi. But in truth the time since I attained Buddhahood is extremely long, as I have told you. It is simply that I use this expedient means to teach and convert living beings and cause them to enter the Buddha way. That is why I speak in this manner.

"Good men, the scriptures expounded by the Thus Come One are all for the purpose of saving and emancipating living beings. Sometimes I speak of myself, sometimes of others: sometimes I present myself, sometimes others; sometimes I show my own actions, sometimes those of others. All that I preach is true and not false.

Why do I do this? The Thus Come One perceives the true aspect of the threefold world exactly as it is. There is no ebb or flow of birth and death, and there is no existing in this world and later entering extinction. It is neither substantial nor empty, neither consistent nor diverse. Nor is it what those who dwell in the threefold world perceive it to be. All such things the Thus Come One sees clearly and without error.

"Because living beings have different natures, different desires, different actions, and different ways of thinking and making distinctions, and because I want to enable them to put down good roots, I employ a variety of causes and conditions, similes, parables, and phrases and preach different doctrines. This, the Buddha's work, I have never for a moment neglected.

"Thus, since I attained Buddhahood, an extremely long period of time has passed. My life span is an immeasurable number of asamkhya kalpas, and during that time I have constantly abided here without ever entering extinction. Good men, originally I practiced the bodhisattva way, and the life span that I acquired then has yet to come to an end but will last twice the number of years that have already passed. Now, however, although in fact I do not actually enter extinction, I announce that I am going to adopt the course of extinction. This is an expedient means which the Thus Come One uses to teach and convert living beings.

"Why do I do this? Because if the Buddha remains in the world for a long time, those persons with shallow virtue will fail to plant good roots but, living in poverty and lowliness, will become attached to the five desires and be caught in the net of deluded thoughts and imaginings. If they see that the Thus Come One is constantly in the world and never enters extinction, they will grow arrogant and selfish, or become discouraged and neglectful. They will fail to realize how difficult it is to encounter the Buddha and will not approach him with a respectful and reverent mind.

"Therefore as an expedient means the Thus Come One says: 'Monks, you should know that it is a rare thing to live at a time when one of the Buddhas appears in the world.' Why does he do this? Because persons of shallow virtue may pass immeasurable hundreds, thousands, ten thousands, millions of kalpas with some of them chancing to see a Buddha and others never seeing one at all. For this reason I say to them: 'Monks, the Thus Come One is hard to get to see.' When living beings hear these words, they are certain to realize how difficult it is to encounter the Buddha. In their minds they will harbor a longing and will thirst to gaze upon the Buddha, and then they will work to plant good roots. Therefore the Thus Come One, though in truth he does not enter extinction, speaks of passing into extinction.

"Good men, the Buddhas and Thus Come Ones all preach a Law such as this. They act in order to save all living beings, so what they do is true and not false.
-The Lotus Sutra, Chapter Sixteen: The Life Span of the Tathagata.
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 5700
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by cappuccino »

Mahabrahma wrote:
cappuccino wrote: Buddha isn't here, nor is he coming back.
Lotus Sutra.

I am asking you to believe in the Buddha and His words.
Buddha is gone and he's not coming back.
Last edited by cappuccino on Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Art requires philosophy, just as philosophy requires art. Otherwise, what would become of beauty? ―Paul Gauguin
Good for Your Soul
User avatar
Mahabrahma
Posts: 663
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:02 am

Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by Mahabrahma »

cappuccino wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:19 am
Mahabrahma wrote:
cappuccino wrote: Buddha isn't here, nor is he coming back.
Lotus Sutra.

I am asking you to believe in the Buddha and His words.
Buddha is gone and he's not coming back.
Maybe you're Buddha.
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 5700
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by cappuccino »

Mahabrahma wrote: Maybe you're Buddha.
Buddha is forever gone.
Art requires philosophy, just as philosophy requires art. Otherwise, what would become of beauty? ―Paul Gauguin
Good for Your Soul
Post Reply