"Moderation in what is beneficial"? - Yoga connections.

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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ihrjordan
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"Moderation in what is beneficial"? - Yoga connections.

Post by ihrjordan »

Split from this Classical Theravada topic: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 83#p385311

Two things that I find interesting. 1. "One goes for alms at an improper time". Now is this implying that eating at the wrong time will reduce vitality or that the act of going for alms at night and thus coming into contact with all kinds of creeps and creepy things will reduce vitality? Or both?

2. "Un-celibacy is a cause for loss of vitality" This seems to jive well with yogic/ayurvedic notions of "semen as life force" and loss of semen as a declining of one's health. See here: "Just as sugar is all-pervading in the sugar-cane, butter in milk, so also semen is pervading the whole body. Just as the butter-milk is thin after butter is removed, so also semen is thinned by its wastage. The more the wastage of semen the more is the weakness.

In Yoga Sastras it is said: “Maranam bindupatanat jivanam bindu-rakshanat—falling of semen brings death; preservation of semen gives life.” Semen is the real vitality in man. It is the hidden treasure for man. It imparts Brahma-Tejas to the face and strength to the intellect."

Brahma Tejas is referencing the "light of god" which is reminiscent of the "good complexion" that the Buddha often cites in reference to virtuous monks appearance. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the Buddha directly ascribe the monks serene disposition to the fact that they are celibate in one sutta?
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Aloka
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Re: "Moderation in what is beneficial"? - Yoga connections.

Post by Aloka »

ihrjordan wrote:

2. "Un-celibacy is a cause for loss of vitality" This seems to jive well with yogic/ayurvedic notions of "semen as life force" and loss of semen as a declining of one's health. See here: "Just as sugar is all-pervading in the sugar-cane, butter in milk, so also semen is pervading the whole body. Just as the butter-milk is thin after butter is removed, so also semen is thinned by its wastage. The more the wastage of semen the more is the weakness.

In Yoga Sastras it is said: “Maranam bindupatanat jivanam bindu-rakshanat—falling of semen brings death; preservation of semen gives life.” Semen is the real vitality in man. It is the hidden treasure for man. It imparts Brahma-Tejas to the face and strength to the intellect."

Brahma Tejas is referencing the "light of god" which is reminiscent of the "good complexion" that the Buddha often cites in reference to virtuous monks appearance. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the Buddha directly ascribe the monks serene disposition to the fact that they are celibate in one sutta?

So how does that work out for nuns and female lay practitioners ?
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ihrjordan
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Re: "Moderation in what is beneficial"? - Yoga connections.

Post by ihrjordan »

Well interestingly enough this applies to both men and women as women too have bones, blood, fat cells etc. It's just seen perhaps more immediately seen in the male species. See this quote from Sivananda :

"According to Ayurveda [Indian medicine], semen is the last Dhatu [original element; core; constituent; the vital force in the human being] that is formed out of food. Out of food is manufactured chyle. Out of chyle comes blood. Out of blood comes flesh. Out of flesh comes fat. Out of fat comes bone. Out of bone comes marrow. Out of marrow comes semen. These are the Sapta Dhatus or the seven Dhatus that support this life and body. Mark here how precious is semen! It is the last essence. It is the Essence of essences. The Virya comes out of the very marrow that lies concealed inside the bones"

In case you are still skeptical there's an interesting article on how British scientists managed to turn a woman's bone marrow into a sort of prototype semen: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... sperm.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are of course problems with this under the headings of genetic variation and inheritance as the fetus would be incredibly likely to be born with a crippling disease.

In Ayurveda it is also said that for one suffering from a disease of the "sleshmala" (heavy or overweight, diabetes, allergies, high cholesterol etc.) type that some good counter measures are intense exercise, intake of old wines (which I would assume prevent the oxidation of fat cells in the blood and major organs) and sex which drains the vital fluids by causing one's body to create more from bone marrow, then create new bone marrow from bone then create new bone from fat etc.

I think it's a mistake to study Buddhism as an isolate; as a lot of what the Buddha taught can be further understood by reading Yogic and Ayurvedic texts. Take for example the Buddha's allowance for monks to partake of sugar dissolved in water as much as they would like. To the modern mind we may think this crazy "They'll get diabetes, doesn't he know that sugar is bad for you?!" But according to ayurveda Sugar partakes of the Sweet taste which is the most important for human development and maintenance. It is said that sugar can prevent disease 8 out of 12 months of the year such as during the hot season and the rains when the body's digestion is especially weak and one's immune system needs a boost.

The Buddha wasn't trying to torture us by recommending one meal a day but rather giving us a method by which we can remain the healthiest. Here are the Buddha's words on one meal day:"Bhikkhus, I eat at a single session. By so doing, I am free from illness and affliction, and I enjoy health, strength, and a comfortable abiding. Come, bhikkhus, eat at a single session. By so doing, you too will be free from illness and affliction, and you will enjoy health, strength, and a comfortable abiding.” Mn 65

And here is a well known yogic poem: "A yogi eats once a day, a bhogi eats twice

a rogi eat three times a day, and it takes four men to carry you to the funeral pyre"

Sorry for the rant I figured they all more or less tied in.
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Re: "Moderation in what is beneficial"? - Yoga connections.

Post by tiltbillings »

ihrjordan wrote: Out of marrow comes semen.
Seriously?
woman's bone marrow into a sort of prototype semen: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... sperm.html
That is not what the article says.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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ihrjordan
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Re: "Moderation in what is beneficial"? - Yoga connections.

Post by ihrjordan »

Hmm I can't say I read the entire thing so my apologies but it's kind of besides the point as western medicine and Ayurveda operate from different foundations and perhaps I am at fault for trying to find parallels of Ayurveda with westernism. But nevertheless the thread's title is "Yoga Connections".
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ihrjordan
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Re: "Moderation in what is beneficial"? - Yoga connections.

Post by ihrjordan »

tiltbillings wrote:Seriously?
Yes. Is it any wonder that Sexual dysfunction and Arthritis are classified as vatala disorders or diseases of emaciation? The seven Dhatus of plasma, blood, muscle, fat, bone, marrow / nerve, and reproductive tissue feed into one another as the body is depleted of one of the seven tissues then the other suffer as a result. Loss of semen leads to dullness of mind and weakened bodily frame thus un-celibacy leads to the loss of vitality as the Buddha had very clearly pointed out.
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Post by tiltbillings »

ihrjordan wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Seriously?
Yes. Is it any wonder that Sexual dysfunction and Arthritis are classified as vatala disorders or diseases of emaciation? The seven Dhatus of plasma, blood, muscle, fat, bone, marrow / nerve, and reproductive tissue feed into one another as the body is depleted of one of the seven tissues then the other suffer as a result. Loss of semen leads to dullness of mind and weakened bodily frame thus un-celibacy leads to the loss of vitality as the Buddha had very clearly pointed out.
That is all very nice, but not necessarily true; however, my response was to the claim that bone marrow is the source of semen, which is nonsense. Also, evolutionarily/biologically semen designed to come out of the body.
Loss of semen leads to dullness of mind and weakened bodily frame thus un-celibacy leads to the loss of vitality as the Buddha had very clearly pointed out
Please quote a sutta where this is clearly, unequivocally pointed by the Buddha.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: "Moderation in what is beneficial"? - Yoga connections.

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

Celibacy and Tantric Buddhism

P.-¿It requires celibacy to attain enlightenment?

R.-I think, in general, no. Then you should ask why the Buddha himself became a monk. I believe, from the point of view of "Viniya Sutra", the main purpose of celibacy is to try to reduce desire and attachment.

From the point of view of Tantrayana, particularly the highest Yoga Tantrayana, energy, "secretions" or the special joy is the source of energy used to dissolve the coarse level of consciousness or the coarse level of energy. Through experience that special joy, there is a possibility that the gross level is eventually dissolved. Thus, the secretions are the key factor for the enjoyment.

In Tibetan Buddhism, especially if you notice the iconography of deities and their consorts you can see a lot of symbolism very explicitly sexual that often causes a misperception. In this case the sexual organ is used, but the movement of energy is completely controlled.

Never let the power go out. This energy must be controlled and directed to other parts of the body. What is required of Tantra practitioner is to develop the ability to use the faculties of enjoyment and static experience that are specifically generated by the flow of regenerative fluids within their own crucial energia.É channels have the ability to protect yourself even the issue of error. This is not precisely an act of pure ordinary sexuality.

...

Q. And the answer you gave on the necessity of celibacy and the use of enjoyment and not issue came from the man's point of view. Why did you never mention the appearance of women in these practices? What a woman needs to do with your energy to achieve enlightenment through the enjoyment?

R. Dalai Lama.- is the same technique and the same principle. According to some of my Indian friends, the practitioners of Indian Tantrayana also perform the practice of Kundalini and Chandralini. My information is that the woman also has some energy class secretions. Therefore, it is the same method.

http://www.vopus.org/pt/gnose/alquimia/ ... trico.html

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ihrjordan
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Post by ihrjordan »

tiltbillings wrote:however, my response was to the claim that bone marrow is the source of semen, which is nonsense. Also, evolutionarily/biologically semen designed to come out of the body.
I wasn't necessarily arguing for the merits of Ayurveda as it's beyond the scope of this discussion but rather pointing out similarities between Ancient Buddhist thought as well as their yogic contemporaries. Besides if one is keen on the western paradigm of health and the idea that all of our sicknesses are derived from near invisible organisms of which we are near powerless to avoid then the act of convincing them otherwise would be similar to hitting my head against a brick wall; it's a rabbit hole I'm not trying go down.
tiltbillings wrote:Please quote a sutta where this is clearly, unequivocally pointed by the Buddha.
What you're probably looking for is a sutta which states "hold onto your semen for good health" which you will not find in the pali canon. But had you checked the sutta in which I responded to you would see that un-celibacy is a cause of loss of vitality. Notice that the Buddha didn't list intense exercise as a cause of loss of vitality so he wasn't referring to simply vigorous actions. And so we must look at the primary difference between sex and intense exercise which is of course loss of vital fluids; a sentiment which is repeated again and again in Ancient Indian thought and I don't believe the Buddha to be an exception. Not everything is spelled out for us in the Dhamma, some things we must use our talents of discernment and observation to make our own well informed conclusions therfore developing insight.
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Post by tiltbillings »

ihrjordan wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Please quote a sutta where this is clearly, unequivocally pointed by the Buddha.
What you're probably looking for is a sutta which states "hold onto your semen for good health" which you will not find in the pali canon. But had you checked the sutta in which I responded to you would see that un-celibacy is a cause of loss of vitality. Notice that the Buddha didn't list intense exercise as a cause of loss of vitality so he wasn't referring to simply vigorous actions. And so we must look at the primary difference between sex and intense exercise which is of course loss of vital fluids; a sentiment which is repeated again and again in Ancient Indian thought and I don't believe the Buddha to be an exception. Not everything is spelled out for us in the Dhamma, some things we must use our talents of discernment and observation to make our own well informed conclusions therfore developing insight.
The only sutta you quoted in this thread is "Mn 65", which has to with eating, not sex, and you did say this: "doesn't the Buddha directly ascribe the monks serene disposition to the fact that they are celibate in one sutta?" That is, however, a very long way from the Buddha the claiming that "checked the sutta in which I responded to you would see that un-celibacy is a cause of loss of vitality."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: "Moderation in what is beneficial"? - Yoga connections.

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

about Vitality, I remembered that part in DN 16

3.3. "Anyone, Ananda, who has developed and cultivated the four bases of spiritual power which has made them your vehicle, its base, which has stabilized in them has been exercising and that has perfected, could, if he so desired, continue living during that aeon or the time that remained of an eon. [15] The Tathagata, Ananda, developed and cultivated the four bases of spiritual power, made them his vehicle, its base, stabilized them, exercised them and perfected them. If he so wished, the Tathagata could continue living during this aeon or the remaining time of the eon. "

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/sutta/DN16.php


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Re: "Moderation in what is beneficial"? - Yoga connections.

Post by ihrjordan »

tiltbillings wrote:The only sutta you quoted in this thread is "Mn 65", which has to with eating, not sex, and you did say this: "doesn't the Buddha directly ascribe the monks serene disposition to the fact that they are celibate in one sutta?" That is, however, a very long way from the Buddha the claiming that "checked the sutta in which I responded to you would see that un-celibacy is a cause of loss of vitality."
AN 5.125 wrote:
Bhikkhus, there are these five things that reduce vitality. What five? One does what is harmful; one does not observe moderation in what is beneficial; one has poor digestion; one walks [for alms] at an improper time; one is not celibate. These are the five things that reduce vitality.
The sutta which I originally responded to before the thread was split...
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Re: "Moderation in what is beneficial"? - Yoga connections.

Post by tiltbillings »

ihrjordan wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The only sutta you quoted in this thread is "Mn 65", which has to with eating, not sex, and you did say this: "doesn't the Buddha directly ascribe the monks serene disposition to the fact that they are celibate in one sutta?" That is, however, a very long way from the Buddha the claiming that "checked the sutta in which I responded to you would see that un-celibacy is a cause of loss of vitality."
AN 5.125 wrote:
Bhikkhus, there are these five things that reduce vitality. What five? One does what is harmful; one does not observe moderation in what is beneficial; one has poor digestion; one walks [for alms] at an improper time; one is not celibate. These are the five things that reduce vitality.
The sutta which I originally responded to before the thread was split...
And so you know from first hand experience that if you have sex, you will be an empty husk of a man unable to reasonably function because you have "reduced vitality." Also, to whom is this sutta directed?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: "Moderation in what is beneficial"? - Yoga connections.

Post by mikenz66 »

One does what is harmful; one does not observe moderation in what is beneficial; one has poor digestion; one walks [for alms] at an improper time; one is not celibate. These are the five things that reduce vitality.
Perhaps someone knowledgeable could comment on whether the word translated as "reduce vitality" (anāyussā), really carries the connotations of "life force".

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Mike
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tiltbillings
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Re: "Moderation in what is beneficial"? - Yoga connections.

Post by tiltbillings »

mikenz66 wrote:
One does what is harmful; one does not observe moderation in what is beneficial; one has poor digestion; one walks [for alms] at an improper time; one is not celibate. These are the five things that reduce vitality.
Perhaps someone knowledgeable could comment on whether the word translated as "reduce vitality" (anāyussā), really carries the connotations of "life force".

:anjali:
Mike
One might feel a bit tired after rousing bout of sex, but reducing "life force"?' What does that mean? How is that measured? Why would we evolve in such a way that our continuation as a species required a reduction in "life force" (whatever that is)?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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