The connection we have with each other

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
chownah
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Re: The connection we have with each other

Post by chownah »

davidbrainerd wrote:
Monkey Gift of Honey wrote:davidbrianerd,
We're all made of blue, green, yellow, orange, red, crimson, fuscia, and puple balls?
Hox genes.

Learn something new, watch the video.

:)
They tortured poor flies with "radioactive probes and toxic enzymes" just to find out that all our bodies are made of material matter and involve genes (which we already knew). I guess some people get more excited about modern science torturing animals to find out how to make mutant chimeras than I do.
Yeah, some people do get excited about hox genes. I think these are the people who understand what it is about. People who don't understand about hox genes and what they imply usually don't get so excited about them.
chownah
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Monkey Gift of Honey
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Re: The connection we have with each other

Post by Monkey Gift of Honey »

chownah

:goodpost:
As a mother watches over her child, willing to risk her own life to protect her only child, so with a boundless heart should one cherish all living beings, suffusing the whole world with unobstructed loving kindness. Standing or walking, sitting or lying down, during all of one's waking hours, one should sustain this heart and this way of living.
- Karaniya Metta Sutta
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The Thinker
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Re: The connection we have with each other

Post by The Thinker »

I presume we are a short step from healing blindness?, Cats eyes could become the norm.
"Watch your heart, observe. Be the observer, be the knower, not the condition" Ajahn Sumedho volume5 - The Wheel Of Truth
binocular
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Re: The connection we have with each other

Post by binocular »

chownah wrote:Yeah, some people do get excited about hox genes. I think these are the people who understand what it is about. People who don't understand about hox genes and what they imply usually don't get so excited about them.
What do they imply?

A reductionist materialism like this:
Monkey Gift of Honey wrote:All animals use the same set of genes to build our bodies, a set of genes inherited from a common ancestor. We are just variations on a body plan of that last common ancestor.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
chownah
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Re: The connection we have with each other

Post by chownah »

binocular wrote:
chownah wrote:Yeah, some people do get excited about hox genes. I think these are the people who understand what it is about. People who don't understand about hox genes and what they imply usually don't get so excited about them.
What do they imply?

A reductionist materialism like this:
Monkey Gift of Honey wrote:All animals use the same set of genes to build our bodies, a set of genes inherited from a common ancestor. We are just variations on a body plan of that last common ancestor.
Exactly that reductionist materialism and even on into areas of more existential importance....like....the discovery of the hox genes has taken phrases that were in the past unthinkingly blurted out like, "well, I'll be a monkey's uncle" and has at a stroke taken them from the ridiculous to the sublime.....for example....

chownah
binocular
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Re: The connection we have with each other

Post by binocular »

chownah wrote:Exactly that reductionist materialism and even on into areas of more existential importance....like....the discovery of the hox genes has taken phrases that were in the past unthinkingly blurted out like, "well, I'll be a monkey's uncle" and has at a stroke taken them from the ridiculous to the sublime.....for example....
What do you think follows from that?
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
davidbrainerd
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Re: The connection we have with each other

Post by davidbrainerd »

chownah wrote: Yeah, some people do get excited about hox genes. I think these are the people who understand what it is about. People who don't understand about hox genes and what they imply usually don't get so excited about them.
chownah
I get what its about. Now they think they can activate genes from other species in embryos of another species in the correct place. So now you can order a designer minataur baby complete with human torso and bull legs. Oh yay. Mad scientismists found a new way to play God. I'm gonna throw a big party.
chownah
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Re: The connection we have with each other

Post by chownah »

binocular wrote:
chownah wrote:Exactly that reductionist materialism and even on into areas of more existential importance....like....the discovery of the hox genes has taken phrases that were in the past unthinkingly blurted out like, "well, I'll be a monkey's uncle" and has at a stroke taken them from the ridiculous to the sublime.....for example....
What do you think follows from that?
From what? If you mean what follows from my post then obviously it is your post but I think you have something else in mind....I'm just not sure what.
chownah
chownah
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Re: The connection we have with each other

Post by chownah »

davidbrainerd wrote:
chownah wrote: Yeah, some people do get excited about hox genes. I think these are the people who understand what it is about. People who don't understand about hox genes and what they imply usually don't get so excited about them.
chownah
I get what its about. Now they think they can activate genes from other species in embryos of another species in the correct place. So now you can order a designer minataur baby complete with human torso and bull legs. Oh yay. Mad scientismists found a new way to play God. I'm gonna throw a big party.
The OP is talking about the past and what the hox genes say about the past. You are speculating on the future. Your speculations on the future could be made based on any genetic research so it is not an observation of an implication peculiar to the hox genes but of genetic research in general. You do not seem to understand what specifically the hox genes suggest about the past which is what the OP is talking about. The hox genes are like a lesson in pre-history for those who understand what is being said. Maybe you are focusing too strongly on your dystopian visions of the future to see the marvelous lesson which can be seen here about the past and for what it means today for our own relationships to the broad stream of life on the planet.
chownah
binocular
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Re: The connection we have with each other

Post by binocular »

chownah wrote:From what? If you mean what follows from my post then obviously it is your post but I think you have something else in mind....I'm just not sure what.
The unspoken implications of a premise like "We all have the same ancestor" can be something like
"... and therefore, we should be nice to eachother, and the animals too."
"... and therefore, we shouldn't think too highly of ourselves."
"... and therefore, we shouldn't go along with what traditional religions tell us, but should instead tailor our behavior according to nature, which is represented in animal behavior."
etc.

There is a level of usually unspoken, unspecified ethical or metaphysical claims that is parallel to claims of scientific findings or theories.
These claims, however, can be discovered when cross-questioning someone who makes them.

chownah wrote:The hox genes are like a lesson in pre-history for those who understand what is being said. Maybe you are focusing too strongly on your dystopian visions of the future to see the marvelous lesson which can be seen here about the past and for what it means today for our own relationships to the broad stream of life on the planet.
There's that ethical/metaphysical implication!

Do say more about the lesson you think can be seen here in regard to hox genes.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
chownah
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Re: The connection we have with each other

Post by chownah »

binocular wrote:
chownah wrote:From what? If you mean what follows from my post then obviously it is your post but I think you have something else in mind....I'm just not sure what.
The unspoken implications of a premise like "We all have the same ancestor" can be something like
"... and therefore, we should be nice to eachother, and the animals too."
"... and therefore, we shouldn't think too highly of ourselves."
"... and therefore, we shouldn't go along with what traditional religions tell us, but should instead tailor our behavior according to nature, which is represented in animal behavior."
etc.

There is a level of usually unspoken, unspecified ethical or metaphysical claims that is parallel to claims of scientific findings or theories.
These claims, however, can be discovered when cross-questioning someone who makes them.

chownah wrote:The hox genes are like a lesson in pre-history for those who understand what is being said. Maybe you are focusing too strongly on your dystopian visions of the future to see the marvelous lesson which can be seen here about the past and for what it means today for our own relationships to the broad stream of life on the planet.
There's that ethical/metaphysical implication!

Do say more about the lesson you think can be seen here in regard to hox genes.
I think your insistence on an unspoken implication arising in the author is misplaced in that often the implication arises in the reader's mind only. I don't think I have any ethical or metaphysical subtexts going on. I don't think that the hox genes implies some sort of ethical need or requirement or even suggestion. I don't see ethics as having anything to do with it. Other people might though. I don't see anything metaphysical about the hox gene either...on the contrary it is quite physical. Making some statement about the hox gene and rebirth would qualify a metaphysical follow through for a discussion of the hox genes but I am not offering that here. I could offer something along those lines if you want.

OK, I'll give another lesson. The hox gene gives a glimpse of the way things are which for many people is at odds with how they think things are. This can have various impacts and individuals will repond differently and how an individual responds can be a valuable lesson for that individual if they are being aware enough of their response. In short, the hox genes provide a lesson in the past and in genetics in and of itself...and....a lesson into our own views. My own reaction when I first heard of the hox genes was how efficient it was and how versatile it was ...so much so that it remained as a core feature of so many different organisms over such a long period of time....the hox genes are a well tested efficient method for creating a proliferation of different life forms.....good work mr. gene designer!!!!!!!

I guess some people do not fabricate the fabrication of elegance but I do....and the hox genes are simplistic elegance of the highest order.
chownah
davidbrainerd
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Re: The connection we have with each other

Post by davidbrainerd »

chownah wrote:
davidbrainerd wrote:
chownah wrote: Yeah, some people do get excited about hox genes. I think these are the people who understand what it is about. People who don't understand about hox genes and what they imply usually don't get so excited about them.
chownah
I get what its about. Now they think they can activate genes from other species in embryos of another species in the correct place. So now you can order a designer minataur baby complete with human torso and bull legs. Oh yay. Mad scientismists found a new way to play God. I'm gonna throw a big party.
The OP is talking about the past and what the hox genes say about the past. You are speculating on the future. Your speculations on the future could be made based on any genetic research so it is not an observation of an implication peculiar to the hox genes but of genetic research in general. You do not seem to understand what specifically the hox genes suggest about the past which is what the OP is talking about. The hox genes are like a lesson in pre-history for those who understand what is being said. Maybe you are focusing too strongly on your dystopian visions of the future to see the marvelous lesson which can be seen here about the past and for what it means today for our own relationships to the broad stream of life on the planet.
chownah
They don't imply anything about the past quite frankly. Certain genes control the development of certain parts of the body. Ok, so genes, DNA, has a shared structure for all organisms. And? You cannot logically infer anything out of that other than exactly that. You could equally and illogically infer (1) that this proves evolution, or (2) that this proves special creation. Logically it proves neither, so it implies nothing about the past. This is only important to the future.
davidbrainerd
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Re: The connection we have with each other

Post by davidbrainerd »

davidbrainerd wrote:
They don't imply anything about the past quite frankly. Certain genes control the development of certain parts of the body. Ok, so genes, DNA, has a shared structure for all organisms. And? You cannot logically infer anything out of that other than exactly that. You could equally and illogically infer (1) that this proves evolution, or (2) that this proves special creation. Logically it proves neither, so it implies nothing about the past. This is only important to the future.
Actually, I've changed my mind on this. They do imply something about the past, and the present. If these genes get in the wrong place you'll get arms growing out of your face...so it implies that for evolution to work, evolution must have intelligence and not be a purely random unguided process like Western scientists claim. So it proves that for evolution to work it would have to be more like Samkhyan evolution and less like Darwinianism. Otherwise, if evolution really was a dumb random unguided process, we'd see people being born with arms or legs on their face quite often. But the guidance the purushas offer to prikriti by shining consciouness onto the budhi or mahat and endowing it with intelligence keeps evolution smart enough to put the hox genes in the right place. This is quite exciting actually!!! :clap:
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Monkey Gift of Honey
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Re: The connection we have with each other

Post by Monkey Gift of Honey »

binocular,
The unspoken implications of a premise like "We all have the same ancestor" can be something like
"... and therefore, we should be nice to each other, and the animals too."
"... and therefore, we shouldn't think too highly of ourselves."
"... and therefore, we shouldn't go along with what traditional religions tell us, but should instead tailor our behavior according to nature, which is represented in animal behavior."
etc.
Implications are whatever they are, or whatever people desire them to be, but the facts remain the facts, truth is truth.

I agree, though, “we shouldn't think too highly of ourselves”. We are animals on the same family tree as all the rest of the animals.
Last edited by Monkey Gift of Honey on Mon Sep 05, 2016 2:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
As a mother watches over her child, willing to risk her own life to protect her only child, so with a boundless heart should one cherish all living beings, suffusing the whole world with unobstructed loving kindness. Standing or walking, sitting or lying down, during all of one's waking hours, one should sustain this heart and this way of living.
- Karaniya Metta Sutta
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Monkey Gift of Honey
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Re: The connection we have with each other

Post by Monkey Gift of Honey »

As a mother watches over her child, willing to risk her own life to protect her only child, so with a boundless heart should one cherish all living beings, suffusing the whole world with unobstructed loving kindness. Standing or walking, sitting or lying down, during all of one's waking hours, one should sustain this heart and this way of living.
- Karaniya Metta Sutta
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