Soul theories and the Dhamma

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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salayatananirodha
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by salayatananirodha »

https://obo.genaud.net/dhamma-vinaya/pts/mn/mn.072.horn.pts.htm#p1 wrote:What do you think about this, Vaccha?

If a fire were blazing in front of you
would you know:

'This fire is blazing in front of me'?"

"Good Gotama, if a fire were blazing in front of me
I should know:

'This fire is blazing in front of me.'"

"But if, Vaccha,
someone were to question you thus:

'This fire that is blazing in front of you -
what is the reason that this fire is blazing?' -

what would you, Vaccha,
reply when questioned thus?"

"If, good Gotama,
someone were to question me thus:

'This fire that is blazing in front of you -
what is the reason that this fire is blazing?' -

I, good Gotama,
on being questioned thus
would reply thus:

'This fire that is blazing in front of me -
this fire is blazing because of a supply
of grass and sticks."

"If that fire that was in front of you, Vaccha,
were to be quenched,
would you know:

'This fire that was in front of me
has been quenched'?"

"If, good Gotama,
that fire that was in front of me
were to be quenched,
I would know:

This fire that was in front of me
has been quenched."

"But if someone were to question you thus, Vaccha:

'That fire that was in front of you
and that has been quenched -
to which direction has that fire gone from here,
to the east
or west
or north
or south?

On being questioned thus,
what would you, Vaccha, reply?"

"It does not apply, good Gotama.

For, good Gotama,
that fire blazed
because of a supply of grass and sticks,
yet from having totally consumed this
and from the lack of other fuel,
being without fuel
it is reckoned to be quenched."
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cappuccino
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by cappuccino »

salayatananirodha wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:15 am neither existence nor non-existence

but the cessation of existence
"Then, good Gotama, is the revered Gotama of this view:

'The Tathāgata neither is
nor is not after dying,
this is indeed the truth,
all else is falsehood'?"

"I, Vaccha, am not of this view"


Discourse to Vacchagotta on Fire
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 12:34 am
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 4:45 am That in itself doesn't necessarily imply that Buddhists have, and indeed the Buddha has, no problem using the language of "self" definitively.
On Self, No Self, and Not-self

"Then is there no self?"

A second time, the Blessed One was silent.

Then, there must be ...... some ..... problem :jumping:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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cappuccino
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by cappuccino »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 10:38 am
cappuccino wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 12:34 am On Self, No Self, and Not-self

"Then is there no self?"

A second time, the Blessed One was silent.

Then, there must be ...... some ..... problem :jumping:
On Not-self…
Anatta-lakkhana Sutta wrote:Bhikkhus, consciousness is not self. Were consciousness self, then this consciousness would not lead to affliction, and one could have it of consciousness: 'Let my consciousness be thus, let my consciousness be not thus.' And since consciousness is not-self, so it leads to affliction, and none can have it of consciousness: 'Let my consciousness be thus, let my consciousness be not thus.'
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andyebarnes67
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by andyebarnes67 »

On reading some of this lengthy thread, it seems that most are lumping self and soul together.
Worth remembering, I think, that the two are not interchangeable for many but are quite distinct from each other.
Soul also doesn't necessarily need to be transcendent (through more than one lifetime).
Do we not use the word often in this way? 'S/he has soul'. The 'Soul of the matter'.

Perhaps the question of whether we 'have a soul' would benefit from some further definition and refining upon what we actually mean.
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cappuccino
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by cappuccino »

"All men's souls are immortal, but the souls of the righteous are immortal and divine." -Socrates
auto
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by auto »

cappuccino wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:21 pm "All men's souls are immortal, but the souls of the righteous are immortal and divine." -Socrates
read this,

pre-ancient Greek ideas as the living being is the soul.
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/what-is-a-soul/ wrote: The Bible’s answer
The word “soul” in the Bible is a translation of the Hebrew word neʹphesh and the Greek word psy·kheʹ. The Hebrew word literally means “a creature that breathes,” and the Greek word means “a living being.” * The soul, then, is the entire creature, not something inside that survives the death of the body. Consider how the Bible shows that the human soul is the whole person:

When Jehovah God created the first man, Adam, the Bible says that “man became a living soul.” (Genesis 2:7, King James Version) Adam was not given a soul​—he became a living soul, or person.
..
Where belief in an immortal soul comes from
Christian denominations that believe in an immortal soul get this teaching, not from the Bible, but from ancient Greek philosophy.
Visuddhimagga
pdf p675 Vism. wrote:25. After defining mentality-materiality thus according to its true nature, then
in order to abandon this worldly designation of “a being” and “a person” more
thoroughly, to surmount confusion about beings and to establish his mind on
the plane of non-confusion, he makes sure that the meaning defined, namely,

“This is mere mentality-materiality, there is no being, no person” is confirmed
by a number of suttas. For this has been said:
As with the assembly of parts
The word “chariot” is countenanced,
So, when the aggregates are present,
“A being” is said in common usage (S I 135).
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Dhamma Chameleon
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by Dhamma Chameleon »

andyebarnes67 wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:16 pm On reading some of this lengthy thread, it seems that most are lumping self and soul together.
...
Perhaps the question of whether we 'have a soul' would benefit from some further definition and refining upon what we actually mean.
It's not just self and soul - in spiritual circles there's also talk of the 'higher self' and the ego (which in this context I guess serves as the 'lower self'), conscious and unconscious self, healthy adult self, inner child self, etc etc... different disciplines and traditions all have their own definitions and advice on what to do with them. The Buddha said that all of this activity misses the point, that the things we're trying to describe, realise and manipulate are not what we think they are. They can still be useful constructs for worldly engagement, but not for Buddhist practice.

My impression is that self and soul theories mainly serve to provide a moral framework by which we can judge ourselves and other people. These are unwholesome tendencies that encourage clinging and conceit. The Buddha's teachings are quite scientific - they do not require a soul or self to stand so we don't need to worry about those topics, isn't that wonderful :rofl:
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cappuccino
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by cappuccino »

auto wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 4:34 pm Visuddhimagga
On Self, No Self, and Not-self

"Then is there no self?"

A second time, the Blessed One was silent.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by Coëmgenu »

What happened the third time? Silence.

What happened when Venerable Ānanda asked why the Buddha was silent three times? The Buddha said any answer would have confused Vacchagotta. He explains this in great detail for Ven Ānanda.

Conclusion, you and Ven Thanissaro don't actually have any idea what you are quoting and why it doesn't apply here. It's a shame the Venerable wrote that misleading article, misleading new Buddhists to this very day.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by DNS »



Snapshot of a DW post at 0:23
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by SteRo »

DNS wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 7:54 pm

Snapshot of a DW post at 0:23
I wonder what's the intended function of the background music? :lol:
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
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cappuccino
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by cappuccino »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 3:36 pm What happened the third time? Silence.
third time?
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by mjaviem »

DNS wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 7:54 pm ...
Snapshot of a DW post at 0:23
This one topic: viewtopic.php?t=27656
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by Coëmgenu »

cappuccino wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 7:06 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 3:36 pm What happened the third time? Silence.
third time?
Believe it or not, Vacchagotta has more than one conversation with the Buddha. They have a long dialogue over multiple suttas. The Anandasutta is one of these.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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