Soul theories and the Dhamma

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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cappuccino
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by cappuccino »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 1:26 pm They have a long dialogue over multiple suttas. The Ananda sutta is one of these.
Ananda Sutta is difficult


No Self is not right
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by Zenny »

If this issue was clear,there wouldn't be so many many posts and
continual confusion.
Fact is its ludicrous to think the Buddha taught no self.
The fact you have a self is so self evident it doesn't need addressing. This single issue is the Greatest corruption in all of Buddhism.
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

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Zenny wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:16 pm Fact is its ludicrous …
the extremes are Self and No Self


Not-self is the middle of these extremes



On Self, No Self, and Not-self
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by Zenny »

cappuccino wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:25 am
Zenny wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:16 pm Fact is its ludicrous …
the extremes are Self and No Self


Not-self is the middle of these extremes



On Self, No Self, and Not-self
Self is not an extreme. No self is.
Self is self evident,axiomatic.
Not self is a limited observation,and used unwisely at times.
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

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the extremes are Self and No Self


Not-self is the middle
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

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cappuccino wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:05 pm the extremes are Self and No Self


Not-self is the middle
What does not-self mean to you, practically speaking? Do you mean the aggregates are not self, but something else is? Or what, exactly?
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

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Spiny Norman wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:22 pm What does not-self mean to you, practically speaking?
Form, O monks, is not-self; if form were self, then form would not lead to affliction and it should obtain regarding form: 'May my form be thus, may my form not be thus'; and indeed, O monks, since form is not-self, therefore form leads to affliction and it does not obtain regarding form: 'May my form be thus, may my form not be thus.'

Feeling, O monks, is not-self; if feeling were self, then feeling would not lead to affliction …

Anatta-lakkhana Sutta: The Discourse on the Not-self Characteristic
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

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cappuccino wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:01 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:22 pm What does not-self mean to you, practically speaking?
Form, O monks, is not-self; if form were self, then form would not lead to affliction and it should obtain regarding form: 'May my form be thus, may my form not be thus'; and indeed, O monks, since form is not-self, therefore form leads to affliction and it does not obtain regarding form: 'May my form be thus, may my form not be thus.'

Feeling, O monks, is not-self; if feeling were self, then feeling would not lead to affliction …

Anatta-lakkhana Sutta: The Discourse on the Not-self Characteristic
Thanks, but you haven't answered my question, which is a very straightforward one. Do you think there is a self outside the aggregates?
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

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Spiny Norman wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:08 pm Do you think there is a self outside the aggregates?
I do not think so
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by Spiny Norman »

:spy:
cappuccino wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:13 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:08 pm Do you think there is a self outside the aggregates?
I do not think so
That sounds like "no self", which you said was an extreme.
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

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Spiny Norman wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:23 pm That sounds like "no self", which you said was an extreme.
I didn't say no self
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

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cappuccino wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:24 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:23 pm That sounds like "no self", which you said was an extreme.
I didn't say no self
I'm confused then. You quoted the usual sutta saying the aggregates aren't self, then you said you didn't think there was a self outside the aggregates.... So? :shrug:
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

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Spiny Norman wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:31 pm I'm confused then.
If I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those brahmans & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism.

If I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is a self — were to answer that there is a self, would that be in keeping with the arising of knowledge that all phenomena are not-self?"

"No, lord."

And if I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, the bewildered Vacchagotta would become even more bewildered: 'Does the self I used to have now not exist?'


Ananda Sutta
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by SteRo »

The buddhist doctrine tells:
MN109 wrote:does not assume form to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form. He does not assume feeling to be the self... does not assume perception to be the self... does not assume fabrications to be the self... He does not assume consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness.
MN148 wrote:"Now, this is the path of practice leading to the cessation of self-identification. One assumes about the eye that 'This is not me, this is not my self, this is not what I am.' One assumes about forms... One assumes about consciousness at the eye... One assumes about contact at the eye... One assumes about feeling... One assumes about craving that 'This is not me, this is not my self, this is not what I am.'
We see that all this depends on arbitrary [non-]assumption. Now when the self (which is not negated here in these doctrines) is purified this way that nothing remains which is assumed to be it then what remains may be given the name "emptiness" or the name "soul". There is no difference because it's just about [non-]assumption and nothing can be assumed to be emptiness as nothing can be assumed to be 'the soul'. Dogmatists will usually take both concepts, "emptiness" and "soul", to be expressions of truth claims, so there is no difference either.
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by form »

Spiny Norman wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:22 pm
cappuccino wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:05 pm the extremes are Self and No Self


Not-self is the middle
What does not-self mean to you, practically speaking? Do you mean the aggregates are not self, but something else is? Or what, exactly?
Non self means it is conditioned. Arise, continue with decay, and disintegrate.
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