Ananda Sutta is difficult
No Self is not right
Ananda Sutta is difficult
the extremes are Self and No Self
Self is not an extreme. No self is.cappuccino wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:25 amthe extremes are Self and No Self
Not-self is the middle of these extremes
On Self, No Self, and Not-self
What does not-self mean to you, practically speaking? Do you mean the aggregates are not self, but something else is? Or what, exactly?cappuccino wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:05 pm the extremes are Self and No Self
Not-self is the middle
Form, O monks, is not-self; if form were self, then form would not lead to affliction and it should obtain regarding form: 'May my form be thus, may my form not be thus'; and indeed, O monks, since form is not-self, therefore form leads to affliction and it does not obtain regarding form: 'May my form be thus, may my form not be thus.'Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:22 pm What does not-self mean to you, practically speaking?
Thanks, but you haven't answered my question, which is a very straightforward one. Do you think there is a self outside the aggregates?cappuccino wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:01 pmForm, O monks, is not-self; if form were self, then form would not lead to affliction and it should obtain regarding form: 'May my form be thus, may my form not be thus'; and indeed, O monks, since form is not-self, therefore form leads to affliction and it does not obtain regarding form: 'May my form be thus, may my form not be thus.'Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:22 pm What does not-self mean to you, practically speaking?
Feeling, O monks, is not-self; if feeling were self, then feeling would not lead to affliction …
Anatta-lakkhana Sutta: The Discourse on the Not-self Characteristic
I do not think so
That sounds like "no self", which you said was an extreme.
I didn't say no selfSpiny Norman wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:23 pm That sounds like "no self", which you said was an extreme.
I'm confused then. You quoted the usual sutta saying the aggregates aren't self, then you said you didn't think there was a self outside the aggregates.... So?cappuccino wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:24 pmI didn't say no selfSpiny Norman wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:23 pm That sounds like "no self", which you said was an extreme.
If I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those brahmans & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism.
MN109 wrote:does not assume form to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form. He does not assume feeling to be the self... does not assume perception to be the self... does not assume fabrications to be the self... He does not assume consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness.
We see that all this depends on arbitrary [non-]assumption. Now when the self (which is not negated here in these doctrines) is purified this way that nothing remains which is assumed to be it then what remains may be given the name "emptiness" or the name "soul". There is no difference because it's just about [non-]assumption and nothing can be assumed to be emptiness as nothing can be assumed to be 'the soul'. Dogmatists will usually take both concepts, "emptiness" and "soul", to be expressions of truth claims, so there is no difference either.MN148 wrote:"Now, this is the path of practice leading to the cessation of self-identification. One assumes about the eye that 'This is not me, this is not my self, this is not what I am.' One assumes about forms... One assumes about consciousness at the eye... One assumes about contact at the eye... One assumes about feeling... One assumes about craving that 'This is not me, this is not my self, this is not what I am.'
Non self means it is conditioned. Arise, continue with decay, and disintegrate.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:22 pmWhat does not-self mean to you, practically speaking? Do you mean the aggregates are not self, but something else is? Or what, exactly?cappuccino wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:05 pm the extremes are Self and No Self
Not-self is the middle