Soul theories and the Dhamma

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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cappuccino
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by cappuccino »

"Then is it the case that. . . the soul & the body are the same. . . the soul is one thing and the body another?"

"Potthapada, I haven't expounded that. . ."

"But why. . .?"

"Because they are not conducive to the goal. . . That's why I haven't expounded them."

Potthapada Sutta
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

.

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:59 am Buddhists have, and indeed the Buddha has, no problem using the language of "self" provisionally.



That in itself doesn't necessarily imply that Buddhists have, and indeed the Buddha has, no problem using the language of "self" definitively.


:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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cappuccino
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 4:45 am That in itself doesn't necessarily imply that Buddhists have, and indeed the Buddha has, no problem using the language of "self" definitively.
On Self, No Self, and Not-self

"Then is there no self?"

A second time, the Blessed One was silent.
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by The_common_zero »

I guess if someone doesn’t want to have a soul they don’t have too I like my ego feels good
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by cappuccino »

The_common_zero wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 1:35 am I guess if someone doesn’t want to have a soul they don’t have to
Poor choices demote a person


Until they are near annihilated


Yet they will exist, forever
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by salayatananirodha »

soul is something that doesn't change, an essence, something constant and invulnerable
there's no such thing in saṁsāra
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

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salayatananirodha wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:44 am soul is something that doesn't change, an essence, something constant and invulnerable
there's no such thing in saṁsāra
Buddha comes to no conclusion about the soul


Buddhists always come to a conclusion
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by SteRo »

salayatananirodha wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:44 am soul is something that doesn't change, an essence, something constant and invulnerable
there's no such thing in saṁsāra
Depends on whether you consider "such thing" to be in nibbana.
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by salayatananirodha »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:55 am
salayatananirodha wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:44 am soul is something that doesn't change, an essence, something constant and invulnerable
there's no such thing in saṁsāra
Buddha comes to no conclusion about the soul


Buddhists always come to a conclusion
except that he constantly rejects the concept of a soul or a self in anything. because there is no basis for such a thing to exist.
the one who posits there to be a soul has the burden to prove, yet they can't
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

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salayatananirodha wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:21 am the one who posits there to be a soul has the burden to prove, yet they can't
spirits inhabit heaven


flesh is for the human realm
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by salayatananirodha »

SteRo wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:08 am
salayatananirodha wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:44 am soul is something that doesn't change, an essence, something constant and invulnerable
there's no such thing in saṁsāra
Depends on whether you consider "such thing" to be in nibbana.
https://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/The-Law-of-Dependent-Arising_LE_Rev_1.0.pdf wrote:In an earlier sermon too we have mentioned to you in brief, some incident recorded in the annals of the history of Buddhism. After the Buddha’s demise, when the time came for the holding of the First Council, Venerable Mahā Kassapa Mahā thera was faced with a problem in selecting five hundred arahants for the recital of Dhamma and Vinaya. It was Venerable Ānanda who had committed to memory the entire Dhamma. But he had not attained arahanthood yet. Therefore 499 arahants were selected at first. They were in a dilemma whether to take in Venerable Ānanda or not. However, at last they decided to take him on the ground that he is incapable of being influenced by prejudices. It is said that on the day before the Council the arahants reminded Venerable Ānanda of his obligation saying: “Friend, tomorrow is our Council. It does not behove you to attend it as a non-arahant. Be diligent.” Those of you who have passed examinations would remember how much you have crammed when you are reminded that tomorrow is the exam. Similarly, Venerable Ānanda too made a firm determination to put forth his best efforts. It is said that he determined thorough mindfulness in regard to the body (kāyagatāsati) and spent the greater part of the night in the promenade pacing up and down mindfully. Probably due to tiredness, in the last watch of the night, he thought of taking some rest, and went and sat on his bed. He was going to lie down, his feet were raised from the floor and his head had not reached the pillow yet, and in the interim his mind was released from all influxes and he attained arahanthood.
Various explanations are given about this extraordinary illumination between two postures. The commentator says that Venerable Ānanda thought: “Now I am striving too hard. Let me balance my spiritual faculties.” That can’t be the reason. There is a subtle psychological norm involved here. Now for Venerable Ānanda, the concept ‘Nibbāna’ appeared as a ‘certificate’ to enter the Council. That is to say, for him ‘Nibbāna’ was something like a certificate. The word ‘Nibbāna’ which stands for ‘giving-up everything’ became a ‘thing’ to be grasped. “I must attain Nibbāna. It is beneath my dignity to attend the Council as a non- arahant.” There itself is conceit and restlessness due to over- exertion. He imagined Nibbāna to be a ‘thing’ and that implies ignorance as well. That is why he could not attain Nibbāna after all that striving. But then, what happened at that particular moment? He had already determined on strenuous effort in all four postures. So if he had lied down on bed he would have continued to put forth strenuous effort. But there is something called ‘posture-junctions’. Most probably he had reckoned without them. However, at that interim instance of bending his body to lie down, he suddenly became aware of an ‘interval’. In that INTERVAL it might have occurred to him: “Oh! I have made a ‘THING’ out of Nibbāna! Isn’t it a term for giving up everything? So why am I struggling?” In that moment of realization he realized Nibbāna and became an Arahant. That is our explanation.
On an earlier occasion too in the course of our sermons, we gave various similes by way of explanation. Even if you are driving in a hurry when you come to the cross-roads junction, you have to slow down. Likewise Venerable Ānanda found a brief interval at a ‘posture-junction’. That is probably how he attained Nibbāna. So there is nothing to take delight in ‘Nibbāna’, because to do so is to perpetuate the subtle notion of “I” and “mine”. But still you may have doubts. So let us bring up an illustration from our village life. Our National New Year Day is drawing near. Isn’t that so? Now among the New Year festivities, there is a game called ‘Blind man cracking the pot.’ Though we have no pots here we shall give a simile somewhat closer to it. You all have seen the artistically painted words on the wall at the far end of this hall. ‘Nibbānaṁ paramaṁ sukhaṁ’ (Nibbāna is Bliss Supreme). After all isn’t that our aim? Nibbāna is the supreme bliss and Nibbāna is over there on the wall. Now supposing I blindfold a young upāsaka in this crowd and ask you all to get to a side to make way for him and ask him to turn towards that ‘Nibbāna’. Of course he cannot see it as he is blindfolded. Then I ask him to do as I say. ‘Take a step towards it. Take another step .... another step .... another step’. You all are now watching. He comes up almost against the wall, step by step. But he doesn’t see it. And then I say: ‘Take another step!’ What happens then? When he lifts his foot he finds that he has to turn back! This is a simile for you to ponder over. ‘Sankhārā’ or preparations have been associated with the simile of the pot. If you can understand this, perhaps you can crack the pot of Sankhārā and attain Nibbāna. The moral behind our simile is that ‘Nibbāna’ as a term is a target not to be ‘grasped’ but to be ‘seen through’. It is a question of penetration. At last you have to ‘let-go’ of it and free the mind of imaginings about it.
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by salayatananirodha »

salayatananirodha wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:21 am the one who posits there to be a soul has the burden to prove, yet they can't
spirits inhabit heaven


flesh is for the human realm
name-and-form, or perhaps in the formless realm, just name
inconstant, dependently arisen, subject to dissolution.
imagine being so close to the truth of the suttas yet misapprehending that!
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by SteRo »

salayatananirodha wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:21 am
cappuccino wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:55 am
salayatananirodha wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:44 am soul is something that doesn't change, an essence, something constant and invulnerable
there's no such thing in saṁsāra
Buddha comes to no conclusion about the soul


Buddhists always come to a conclusion
except that he constantly rejects the concept of a soul or a self in anything. because there is no basis for such a thing to exist.
the one who posits there to be a soul has the burden to prove, yet they can't
Ah, c'mon. Christians believe to prove the existence of god and you can't persuade them to not believe in their ignorance. It is simply a matter of ignorance being present or not.
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by cappuccino »

salayatananirodha wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:34 am
“There is that sphere where there is no earth, no water, no fire nor wind; no sphere of infinity of space, of infinity of consciousness, of nothingness or even of neither-perception-nor non-perception; there, there is neither this world nor the other world, neither moon nor sun; this sphere I call neither a coming nor a going nor a staying still, neither a dying nor a reappearance; it has no basis, no evolution and no support: this, just this, is the end of dukkha.”
~ Ud 8.1
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by salayatananirodha »

neither existence nor non-existence

but the cessation of existence
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