Critiques of the Buddhadhamma

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Ontheway
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Re: Critiques of the Buddhadhamma

Post by Ontheway »

Some critics I can find on internet...sometimes watching these makes me reflect better on my understanding on Dhamma.

Christians refute Buddhism:


They claimed Buddhism as a "wicked teaching". :thinking:

Islam refute Buddhism:



Random refutation of Buddhism (represented by Ajahn Brahm):


I think people should read Brahmajala Sutta, Kalama Sutta, and Apannaka Sutta whenever have doubts.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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Dhamma Chameleon
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Re: Critiques of the Buddhadhamma

Post by Dhamma Chameleon »

Ontheway wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 3:17 am Some critics I can find on internet...sometimes watching these makes me reflect better on my understanding on Dhamma.

Christians refute Buddhism
These generally come from a misunderstanding and misrepresentation of Buddhism. I guess they can be helpful for clarifying the Buddhist position in your own mind, you can practice formulating the correct sutta-based response. But I've rarely seen a valid critique of Buddhism coming from someone with a deep understanding of what they are talking about.

I think the most valid criticism in modern times is that practice can lead to spiritual bypassing and that there is not enough room for the role of emotional/psychological healing as an aid to spiritual progress. Luckily there are plenty of teachers who recognise this and encourage healing practices, as well as meditation. Some non-Buddhist spiritual teachers (like Thomas Hubl) equate healing trauma with ending dark kamma, I find that a useful perspective.
PeterC86
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Re: Critiques of the Buddhadhamma

Post by PeterC86 »

Ontheway wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 3:17 am Some critics I can find on internet...sometimes watching these makes me reflect better on my understanding on Dhamma.
Nice that you digged this topic up, it perfectly suits my deep craving to bust pretentious saints dressed up in wards, hiding in monasteries, and preaching bullshit to gullible people. I found the last video funny, because it shows that people with a high degree from a fancy university can be the most deluded people out there. The video definitely raises doubt about what the turd in wards is preaching, although it doesn't go deep in the rabbit hole that is Buddhism. And I intent to go in deep...real deep. So buckle your seatbelt Dorothy, because this religion is going bye-bye.
Bundokji
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Re: Critiques of the Buddhadhamma

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Dhamma Chameleon wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:47 am These generally come from a misunderstanding and misrepresentation of Buddhism. I guess they can be helpful for clarifying the Buddhist position in your own mind, you can practice formulating the correct sutta-based response. But I've rarely seen a valid critique of Buddhism coming from someone with a deep understanding of what they are talking about.
True, but that does not make these critiques baseless.
"This Dhamma that I have attained is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, peaceful, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise.
I think the most valid criticism in modern times is that practice can lead to spiritual bypassing and that there is not enough room for the role of emotional/psychological healing as an aid to spiritual progress. Luckily there are plenty of teachers who recognise this and encourage healing practices, as well as meditation. Some non-Buddhist spiritual teachers (like Thomas Hubl) equate healing trauma with ending dark kamma, I find that a useful perspective.
While the path is gradual, healing traumas seems to be a common belief amongst western converts. Traumas can indeed be a cause of attachments, but i am unaware that this notion of healing traumas has any support in the teachings.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Dhamma Chameleon
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Re: Critiques of the Buddhadhamma

Post by Dhamma Chameleon »

Bundokji wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:48 am True, but that does not make these critiques baseless.
Sure, but for those who find them relevant, Buddhism is not the right path. Maybe I'm being picky with what I look for in a critique, which is that it is relevant to those people who subscribe to what is being critiqued.
Bundokji wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:48 am While the path is gradual, healing traumas seems to be a common belief amongst western converts. Traumas can indeed be a cause of attachments, but i am unaware that this notion of healing traumas has any support in the teachings.
Right, that's why I consider it a valid critique! The suttas are silent about something that can be clearly seen in real life, that I and many of my friends and fellow practitioners have experienced. In practice what we see a lot of is people (inadvertently) using meditation to bypass their problems, or going forth for years, and after a while feeling all wonderful and equanimous so they think they've progressed or achieved some attainment. But as soon as they're back in contact with other people or the meditative state is lost all these intense attachments and defilements rise to the surface again. And as many practitioners have discovered in the last 50 or so years, if you do emotional/psychological/body work, you can resolve a lot of these suppressed attachments and progress further upon the spiritual path than you did by suppressing them with meditation.

Mind you I'm not saying it's a substitute for meditation, just a very important support. I can also understand that the suttas don't say anything about it, because this knowledge has really only been developed in the last 100 years or so. And I am sure that it is possible to progress along the path without doing this supportive work, but it's a lot more difficult and prone to getting stuck.
Bundokji
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Re: Critiques of the Buddhadhamma

Post by Bundokji »

Dhamma Chameleon wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:55 am Sure, but for those who find them relevant, Buddhism is not the right path. Maybe I'm being picky with what I look for in a critique, which is that it is relevant to those people who subscribe to what is being critiqued.
You are right from the perspective of the individual practitioner, but in terms of a dynamic between different schools of thought, Buddhism is perceived as a sect whether we like it or not. In the suttas, the Buddha is presented as part of this dynamic. In fact, being dismissive of critiques might not be conducive to the continuity of institutional Buddhism which is where we all encounter the teachings in its visible form. As a practice to end clinging/craving, what is there to be critiqued?

Right, that's why I consider it a valid critique! The suttas are silent about something that can be clearly seen in real life, that I and many of my friends and fellow practitioners have experienced. In practice what we see a lot of is people (inadvertently) using meditation to bypass their problems, or going forth for years, and after a while feeling all wonderful and equanimous so they think they've progressed or achieved some attainment. But as soon as they're back in contact with other people or the meditative state is lost all these intense attachments and defilements rise to the surface again. And as many practitioners have discovered in the last 50 or so years, if you do emotional/psychological/body work, you can resolve a lot of these suppressed attachments and progress further upon the spiritual path than you did by suppressing them with meditation.

Mind you I'm not saying it's a substitute for meditation, just a very important support. I can also understand that the suttas don't say anything about it, because this knowledge has really only been developed in the last 100 years or so. And I am sure that it is possible to progress along the path without doing this supportive work, but it's a lot more difficult and prone to getting stuck.
Yesterday i was listening to a conversation comparing Carl Jung with Eastern yogic practices presenting Jung as an attempt to bridge Eastern thought to the western mind. The point about spiritual bypassing was introduced and was linked to the western mind which triggered thoughts in me. One way to approach this hypothesis is that the emphasis on reason in western culture might create blocks such as the need to be overly justified before beginning mediation. As you stated, healing traumas are a support to meditation but not a substitute to it.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Dhamma Chameleon
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Re: Critiques of the Buddhadhamma

Post by Dhamma Chameleon »

PeterC86 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:13 am Nice that you digged this topic up, it perfectly suits my deep craving to bust pretentious saints dressed up in wards, hiding in monasteries, and preaching bullshit to gullible people. I found the last video funny, because it shows that people with a high degree from a fancy university can be the most deluded people out there. The video definitely raises doubt about what the turd in wards is preaching, although it doesn't go deep in the rabbit hole that is Buddhism. And I intent to go in deep...real deep. So buckle your seatbelt Dorothy, because this religion is going bye-bye.
Makes me think of this quote
“Each of us must turn inward and destroy in himself all that he thinks he ought to destroy in others.”
― Etty Hillesum
Bundokji wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:48 am You are right from the perspective of the individual practitioner, but in terms of a dynamic between different schools of thought, Buddhism is perceived as a sect whether we like it or not. In the suttas, the Buddha is presented as part of this dynamic. In fact, being dismissive of critiques might not be conducive to the continuity of institutional Buddhism which is where we all encounter the teachings in its visible form. As a practice to end clinging/craving, what is there to be critiqued?
You're right, I'm looking at it from the perspective of an individual practitioner. I'm not interested in intrafaith debates, but respect those willing to enter into them! All the points from the videos can be refuted by someone skilled in dhamma, though I doubt any of those speakers would then change their mind or adjust their view. But there's always hope.
The point about spiritual bypassing was introduced and was linked to the western mind which triggered thoughts in me. One way to approach this hypothesis is that the emphasis on reason in western culture might create blocks such as the need to be overly justified before beginning mediation. As you stated, healing traumas are a support to meditation but not a substitute to it.
I think you have a point, the western mind has grasped onto individuality and intellect so much that we have way more attachment problems with it than some other cultures. The Dalai Lama said something along the lines of self esteem just not being an issue in his culture.
PeterC86
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Re: Critiques of the Buddhadhamma

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Dhamma Chameleon wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:47 am I guess they can be helpful for clarifying the Buddhist position in your own mind, you can practice formulating the correct sutta-based response.
This statement implies that the suttas are correct, which is the foundation of Buddhism, while the OP, and the critiques, are investigating the possibility that there might be something wrong with the suttas.
But I've rarely seen a valid critique of Buddhism coming from someone with a deep understanding of what they are talking about.
Well, let me surprise you, as I have investigated some myself, and this is what I found. Please also read my posts on the next page in that topic. viewtopic.php?p=644291#p644291

I will explain, in the most easiest way I can, what my posts in that topic infer.

Let's start with that Ananda says that he knows the path, although from what I have read about the first buddhist council, is that he hadn't attained full liberation just before the council, but he intended to reach it, in order to be permitted to be part of it. Maybe this all happened, or it didn't, who knows.

The key of the Buddhadhamma, as laid out in the Samyutta Nikaya section 12, is dependent origination, with ignorance as the first cause of our suffering. This while Ananda said that abandoning of desire & the fabrications of exertion is the path.

:oops:

But to delve deeper, as there seem to be some hardcore blind believers on this forum; ignorance and desire are not the same, and even if they were the same, you obviously wouldn't know it. It could however be that desire follows from ignorance, we will get to this further on.

As a faithful follower of the Buddhadhamma, you are now confronted with the problem you were struggling with; abandoning desire doesn't lead to dissolving ignorance. Even though ignorance is obviously the cause of any problem you might come up with, because it weren't a problem if you knew the solution, let us explore the path of Ananda real short. Just to be thorough.

If desire were the cause of your suffering, then you obviously would need to abandon that in order to get liberated. But if you are captured by desire, you can only use desire to abandon desire. That is also what Ananda says; "abandon desire by means of desire." https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

But if you need to desire to abandon desire, you need to desire to desire to abandon desire. You can call that desire 'intent', but it is still a form of desire.

And if you need to desire to desire to abandon desire, you need to desire to desire to desire to abandon desire. Now you can call that desire 'discrimination', but it is still a form desire.

And if you need to desire to desire to desire to abandon desire, you need to desire to desire to desire to desire to abandon desire. Now you can call that desire anyway you want, but this has no ending.

But acccording to Ananda, the Arahant somehow popped out of this circle by ending the mental effluents, reaching fulfillment, done the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, totally destroyed the fetter of becoming, and who is released through right gnosis. Well, you might ask yourself; how did the Arahant do that Ananda? I smell something here, and it doesn't smell nice..

But as a faithful blind follower, you might say; it was the noble eightfold path (N8P) sir, it was the N8P! Well, let us explore that path. SN 12.65 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html mentions the N8P, and explains that it leads to the cessation of dependent origination. It isn't mentioned who gave that teaching, but apparently Ananda memorized most of the teachings from the Buddha, and even though Ananda's delusion and deceit was already clear to me; I will just investigate further.

In the sutta we can read that the N8P eventually leads to the cessation of ignorance, and of desire, as in the sutta it is stated that desire apparently follows from ignorance. Well, that is not what Ananda taught..:)

Now the foundation really starts to shake, but we still have the N8P and dependent origination. Well, now you might ask, where did this N8P come from, and how does it lead to cessation of dependent origination? Well, the sutta states;

"In the same way I saw an ancient path, an ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times. And what is that ancient path, that ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right aspiration, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. That is the ancient path, the ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times."

Okay okay, so the N8P came from the ancient path traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times, who the teacher of this teaching saw in the same way. What the teacher states here is that he or she knows the path, because he or she sees the path in the same way as others that have gone before him or her. But as we have no way of verifying these words, we just ought to believe this. Unless it becomes clear to us how the N8P leads to the cessation of dependent origination. Let us investigate, as the sutta follows;

"I followed that path. Following it, I came to direct knowledge of aging & death, direct knowledge of the origination of aging & death, direct knowledge of the cessation of aging & death, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of aging & death. I followed that path. Following it, I came to direct knowledge of birth... becoming... clinging... craving... feeling... contact... the six sense media... name-&-form... consciousness, direct knowledge of the origination of consciousness, direct knowledge of the cessation of consciousness, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of consciousness. I followed that path."

"Following it, I came to direct knowledge of fabrications, direct knowledge of the origination of fabrications, direct knowledge of the cessation of fabrications, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of fabrications. Knowing that directly, I have revealed it to monks, nuns, male lay followers & female lay followers, so that this holy life has become powerful, rich, detailed, well-populated, wide-spread, proclaimed among celestial & human beings."


Abolutely nothing! No explanation whatsoever. Well now the foundation really starts to crumble. But we are still left with the twelve links of dependent origination (DO). So what does the buddhadhamma teach us about the twelve links of DO? SN 12.69 https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN12_69.html tells us that an ebbing ignorance cause the rest to ebb. Then I think; okay sounds kind of vague.

But then in SN 12.23 https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN12_23.html, it is stated that there are 24 links of DO. But if we read closely, we can see that after 'stress', the links, as also explained in SN 12.65 and SN 12.69, can be seen as reversed. We are convinced of stress, which gives birth to joy, through which we become rapture, therefore we cling to calmness, we crave pleasure, we feel concentrated, we have contact with knowledge & vision of things as they have come to be, from our six sense media we are disenchanted, through consciousness we experience dispassion, through fabrications we experience release, and through ignorance we experience knowledge of ending. So here it says; ignorance leads eventually to knowledge of ending. This teaching also clarifies the teaching given in SN 12.69.

The above makes sense, as the links are of dependent origination. So in order to dissolve DO, one needs to walk backwards, and not some N8P we ought to believe.

And then I found another very peculiar thing, as AN 11.1 https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN11_1.html states, from a conversation between Ananda and the Blessed One, from which we know that the words we read can only be spoken by Ananda on the first council, that skillful virtues lead to knowledge & vision of release (knowledge of ending). What we can see in this sutta, is that the reversed order of the twelve links of DO is used, using skillfull virtues as an arbitrary beginning, via freedom from remorse, instead of mentioning conviction and stress. Well isn't that convenient for someone who needs to convince someone of a certain path?

One could further ask; the knowledge of release of what? Well, Ananda gives you the answer, as in his words, proclaiming he spoke the words of the Blessed One, through a conversation between the Blessed One and Ananda, of which we can have no knowledge, in which the Blessed One apparently said;

“In this way, Ānanda, skillful virtues lead step-by-step to the consummation of arahantship.”

One might ask, where do these skillful virtues come from, and how does one gain them? Well, Access To Insight https://accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sila/index.html explains in a beautiful sentence;

Sila (virtue, moral conduct) is the cornerstone upon which the entire Noble Eightfold Path is built.

Well, no shit.. :spy:

And where does this made up N8P lead to? SN 45.8 explains https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html.

The rest follows naturally doesn't it? But if you need to have that explained, you can follow the link below. Now before you turn your back on this forum and Buddhism all together, and I am not saying you should, because maybe you like to meditate around in circles, but if you don't, maybe you can consider that there are other people who might like to know this information.

_/|\_
Dweller
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Re: Critiques of the Buddhadhamma

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Everything crumbles when you take down its pillars.

When using the logic of one belief system or philosophy to examine the other, you will always find flaws in it.

Hence, saddha is very important.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Critiques of the Buddhadhamma

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PeterC86 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 2:05 pm Now before you turn your back on this forum and Buddhism all together, and I am not saying you should, because maybe you like to meditate around in circles, but if you don't, maybe you can consider that there are other people who might like to know this information.
Moderator note: could I respectfully point out to our resident Arahant that the section above might be taken to mean that another member is somehow wasting their time with this forum and with Buddhism altogether? And that this might be in breach of ToS 2b? Happy to receive any clarifications.

Thanks. :anjali:
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Re: Critiques of the Buddhadhamma

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Its impossible to prove buddha teaching as wrong by any human or brahma or deva or any wise being.. but it is possible for muddled mindrd people to misrepresent and create bad kamma for themselves
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
PeterC86
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Re: Critiques of the Buddhadhamma

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Sam Vara wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 3:51 pm Moderator note: could I respectfully point out to our resident Arahant that the section above might be taken to mean that another member is somehow wasting their time with this forum and with Buddhism altogether? And that this might be in breach of ToS 2b? Happy to receive any clarifications.

Thanks. :anjali:
Thank you for your response. Although I don't identify with whatever the term Arahant should mean, I get your point, and it could be taken in this way. And I can understand if you mod the part; "because maybe you like to meditate around in circles, but if you don't". And thank you for taking my clarification into consideration.

I have trouble being virtuous.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Critiques of the Buddhadhamma

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PeterC86 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:40 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 3:51 pm Moderator note: could I respectfully point out to our resident Arahant that the section above might be taken to mean that another member is somehow wasting their time with this forum and with Buddhism altogether? And that this might be in breach of ToS 2b? Happy to receive any clarifications.

Thanks. :anjali:
Thank you for your response. Although I don't identify with whatever the term Arahant should mean, I get your point, and it could be taken in this way. And I can understand if you mod the part; "because maybe you like to meditate around in circles, but if you don't". And thank you for taking my clarification into consideration.

I have trouble being virtuous.
You did claim to be an Arahant not too long ago.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Critiques of the Buddhadhamma

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confusedlayman wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 4:46 pm Its impossible to prove buddha teaching as wrong by any human or brahma or deva or any wise being.. but it is possible for muddled mindrd people to misrepresent and create bad kamma for themselves
I think this is some very important stuff that we've got on our hands. Matters of liberation from the round. This isn't ice cream flavours or pizza toppings. A lot is on the table, the stakes are high. Critical thinking should be exercised to an exaggerately high degree. Nothing wrong with that. Gotama's Dhamma might as well be pure and right, but clearly we're not receiving it directly from him, but from 2500 years of passed down scripture, which has undergone plenty of translation, interpretation, editing, etc. Of course, one can choose to exercise blind faith instead, and see where that leads him. But would doing that really be in accordance with what Gotama taught? Shrug.
PeterC86
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Re: Critiques of the Buddhadhamma

Post by PeterC86 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:32 pm You did claim to be an Arahant not too long ago.
That was at the time that I was under the impression that Arahantship and Nibbana were the same thing. In the moment that I realized that this isn't the case, I immediately corrected this.
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