Critiques of the Buddhadhamma

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
PeterC86
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Re: Critiques of the Buddhadhamma

Post by PeterC86 »

"Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains what was not said or spoken by the Tathagata as said or spoken by the Tathagata. And he who explains what was said or spoken by the Tathagata as not said or spoken by the Tathagata. These are two who slander the Tathagata."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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cappuccino
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Re: Critiques of the Buddhadhamma

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PeterC86 wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 4:52 pm "Monks, these two slander the Tathagata.
those who fear this are good Buddhists


not those who do not fear this
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equilibrium
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Re: Critiques of the Buddhadhamma

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PeterC86 wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:30 am Nibbana has no conditions, so it cannot be known. But if I know this, do I not know it? I cannot answer that.
Nibbana is the destruction of greed, anger and delusion…..it’s a direct experience.
Whenever one experiences the arising and passing away of the mental and physical processes, he enjoys bliss and delight.
He attains the deathless as attained by the wise.
There is NO doubt about it:
AN 6.13:
Furthermore, there is the case where a monk might say, 'Although "I am" is gone, and I do not assume that "I am this," still the arrow of uncertainty & perplexity keeps overpowering my mind.' He should be told, 'Don't say that. You shouldn't speak in that way. Don't misrepresent the Blessed One, for it's not right to misrepresent the Blessed One, and the Blessed One wouldn't say that. It's impossible, there is no way that — when "I am" is gone, and "I am this" is not assumed — the arrow of uncertainty & perplexity would keep overpowering the mind. That possibility doesn't exist, for this is the escape from the arrow of uncertainty & perplexity: the uprooting of the conceit, "I am.
happiness is the supporting condition for concentration, concentration is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, the knowledge and vision of things as they really are is the supporting condition for disenchantment, disenchantment is the supporting condition for dispassion, dispassion is the supporting condition for emancipation, and emancipation is the supporting condition for the knowledge of the destruction (of the cankers)."
3 characteristics:
Thus the impermanent, unsatisfactory phenomena comprised in the five aggregates turn out to have a third characteristic, the aspect of selflessness. The realization of these three characteristics — impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and selflessness — through unmediated insight is the knowledge and vision of things as they really are.
On conditioned and unconditioned…..one is temporary and the other is permanent:
Conditioned:

Bhikkhus, there are these three characteristics that define the conditioned. What three? An arising is seen, a vanishing is seen, and it’s alteration while it persists is seen. These are the three characteristics that define the conditioned.

Unconditioned:

Bhikkhus, there are these three characteristics that define the unconditioned. What three? No arising is seen, no vanishing is seen, and no alteration while it persists is seen. These are the three characteristics that define the unconditioned.
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equilibrium
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Re: Critiques of the Buddhadhamma

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PeterC86 wrote:
One could further ask; the knowledge of release of what? Well,…….
The Buddha shows you the door…..via the raft…..but you’re the one who has to walk through it…..no one can do it for you.
PeterC86
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Re: Critiques of the Buddhadhamma

Post by PeterC86 »

equilibrium wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:29 pm
PeterC86 wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:30 am Nibbana has no conditions, so it cannot be known. But if I know this, do I not know it? I cannot answer that.
Nibbana is the destruction of greed, anger and delusion…..it’s a direct experience.
Good day sir, madam,

On it being a direct experience I can, in a mundane sense, agree, on the rest I cannot.

You might want to read this; viewtopic.php?p=644291#p644291, which I linked to here viewtopic.php?p=649067#p649067.
Whenever one experiences the arising and passing away of the mental and physical processes, he enjoys bliss and delight.
He attains the deathless as attained by the wise.
In a mundane sense, one could say that. Just as I could say, in a mundane sense, that I enjoy bliss and delight in the rising and ebbing of the ocean.
There is NO doubt about it:
AN 6.13:
Furthermore, there is the case where a monk might say, 'Although "I am" is gone, and I do not assume that "I am this," still the arrow of uncertainty & perplexity keeps overpowering my mind.' He should be told, 'Don't say that. You shouldn't speak in that way. Don't misrepresent the Blessed One, for it's not right to misrepresent the Blessed One, and the Blessed One wouldn't say that. It's impossible, there is no way that — when "I am" is gone, and "I am this" is not assumed — the arrow of uncertainty & perplexity would keep overpowering the mind. That possibility doesn't exist, for this is the escape from the arrow of uncertainty & perplexity: the uprooting of the conceit, "I am.
I have no doubt about it sir, madam.
happiness is the supporting condition for concentration, concentration is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, the knowledge and vision of things as they really are is the supporting condition for disenchantment, disenchantment is the supporting condition for dispassion, dispassion is the supporting condition for emancipation, and emancipation is the supporting condition for the knowledge of the destruction (of the cankers)."
I don't know of any destruction sir, madam, because I see no coming and going.
3 characteristics:
Thus the impermanent, unsatisfactory phenomena comprised in the five aggregates turn out to have a third characteristic, the aspect of selflessness. The realization of these three characteristics — impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and selflessness — through unmediated insight is the knowledge and vision of things as they really are.
Of this I ask you sir, madam; how can something which is unconditioned have characteristics?
On conditioned and unconditioned…..one is temporary and the other is permanent:
Conditioned:

Bhikkhus, there are these three characteristics that define the conditioned. What three? An arising is seen, a vanishing is seen, and it’s alteration while it persists is seen. These are the three characteristics that define the conditioned.

Unconditioned:

Bhikkhus, there are these three characteristics that define the unconditioned. What three? No arising is seen, no vanishing is seen, and no alteration while it persists is seen. These are the three characteristics that define the unconditioned.
Now you present me with three other characteristics for the unconditioned, but if I read closely, those are not really characteristics, but the negation of characteristics. So in a mundane and supramundane sense, I can agree.
Last edited by PeterC86 on Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
PeterC86
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Re: Critiques of the Buddhadhamma

Post by PeterC86 »

equilibrium wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:44 pm
PeterC86 wrote:
One could further ask; the knowledge of release of what? Well,…….
The Buddha shows you the door…..via the raft…..but you’re the one who has to walk through it…..no one can do it for you.
Indeed, that's why I left the raft.
PeterC86
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Re: Critiques of the Buddhadhamma

Post by PeterC86 »

Wake up,....



Buddhism has you....



Follow the white rabbit.



Knock, knock.
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cappuccino
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Re: Critiques of the Buddhadhamma

Post by cappuccino »

PeterC86 wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:03 am Indeed, that's why I left the raft.
far too early
PeterC86
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Re: Critiques of the Buddhadhamma

Post by PeterC86 »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:25 pm
PeterC86 wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:03 am Indeed, that's why I left the raft.
far too early
You be the judge; viewtopic.php?p=649381#p649381
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cappuccino
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Re: Critiques of the Buddhadhamma

Post by cappuccino »

PeterC86 wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:12 am You be the judge; url
I won't read that
Ontheway
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Re: Critiques of the Buddhadhamma

Post by Ontheway »


Another video I find interesting...
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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Pondera
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Re: Critiques of the Buddhadhamma

Post by Pondera »

Peter replied
3 characteristics:
Thus the impermanent, unsatisfactory phenomena comprised in the five aggregates turn out to have a third characteristic, the aspect of selflessness. The realization of these three characteristics — impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and selflessness — through unmediated insight is the knowledge and vision of things as they really are.
Of this I ask you sir, madam; how can something which is unconditioned have characteristics?
You’ve clearly misread him/her. The skhandas are conditioned. By what? Dukkha, anicca, Anatta.
equilibrium wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:29 pm [quote=PeterC86 post_id=649180 time=<a href="tel:1633941050" target="_blank">1633941050</a> user_id=15474]
Nibbana has no conditions, so it cannot be known. But if I know this, do I not know it? I cannot answer that.
Nibbana is the destruction of greed, anger and delusion…..it’s a direct experience.
Whenever one experiences the arising and passing away of the mental and physical processes, he enjoys bliss and delight.
He attains the deathless as attained by the wise.
There is NO doubt about it:
AN 6.13:
Furthermore, there is the case where a monk might say, 'Although "I am" is gone, and I do not assume that "I am this," still the arrow of uncertainty & perplexity keeps overpowering my mind.' He should be told, 'Don't say that. You shouldn't speak in that way. Don't misrepresent the Blessed One, for it's not right to misrepresent the Blessed One, and the Blessed One wouldn't say that. It's impossible, there is no way that — when "I am" is gone, and "I am this" is not assumed — the arrow of uncertainty & perplexity would keep overpowering the mind. That possibility doesn't exist, for this is the escape from the arrow of uncertainty & perplexity: the uprooting of the conceit, "I am.
happiness is the supporting condition for concentration, concentration is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, the knowledge and vision of things as they really are is the supporting condition for disenchantment, disenchantment is the supporting condition for dispassion, dispassion is the supporting condition for emancipation, and emancipation is the supporting condition for the knowledge of the destruction (of the cankers)."
3 characteristics:
Thus the impermanent, unsatisfactory phenomena comprised in the five aggregates turn out to have a third characteristic, the aspect of selflessness. The realization of these three characteristics — impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and selflessness — through unmediated insight is the knowledge and vision of things as they really are.
On conditioned and unconditioned…..one is temporary and the other is permanent:
Conditioned:

Bhikkhus, there are these three characteristics that define the conditioned. What three? An arising is seen, a vanishing is seen, and it’s alteration while it persists is seen. These are the three characteristics that define the conditioned.

Unconditioned:

Bhikkhus, there are these three characteristics that define the unconditioned. What three? No arising is seen, no vanishing is seen, and no alteration while it persists is seen. These are the three characteristics that define the unconditioned.
This is IMO an excellent post which is based on Buddha Dhamma and highlights many important concepts/instructions/teachings.

I would only add that the cankers are not destroyed. This implies a violence or a doing on the part of the mendicant.

Instead, the cankers are let go of. The cankers are a darkness buried so deep within the core of our hearts that we must peel off numerous layers in order to even see it.

By faith, we have joy, which is acceptance of kasinas. By joy we have rapture which is the muscles and ligaments letting go of stored pain into the abundance of the kasina. By rapture we have tranquility which is that same letting go of pain into the infinity of the kasina - except we do this with our minds. With tranquility we have sukha which is the blissful letting go of long held pain into the kasina. It is similar to rapture in that it is a letting go of pain, yet a deeper, more engrained addiction to pleasure (the cause of pain) which we let go. The mind is then unified in samadhi, having released all obstructions from the mind’s eye. That is where the mind is able to penetrate into the three marks. The whole body and mind are evaluated as having the three marks. Disenchanted and passionless for pleasures we let go of our attachment to the skhandhas.

The very core of our heart opens up. Lust, anger, delusion, dukkha, annatta, anicca. Our heart lets all of this go. The flame is out. As the Buddha said,

“Darkness was dispelled; knowledge arose.”
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
Mr. Seek
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Re: Critiques of the Buddhadhamma

Post by Mr. Seek »

To not critique the Dhamma is to critique the Dhamma.
Ontheway
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Re: Critiques of the Buddhadhamma

Post by Ontheway »

Quite interesting.

I think, to him, Rebirth idea is a dead man's joke. :rofl:

Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Ontheway
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Re: Critiques of the Buddhadhamma

Post by Ontheway »



And this is .... :toilet:
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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