I'm regretful, I will no longer post on this topic.SDC wrote:Moderator Note: This is the "Connections to Other Paths" section of the forum. Any further vilification of other traditions, or direct attacks against one another will result in board discipline.
The Bodhisattva Ideal in Mahayana Buddhism
- oncereturner
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Mahayana Buddhism
"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."
— SN 45.8
— SN 45.8
Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Mahayana Buddhism
Do not be regretful. Several posts have been removed and yours was not one of them.oncereturner wrote:I'm regretful, I will no longer post on this topic.SDC wrote:Moderator Note: This is the "Connections to Other Paths" section of the forum. Any further vilification of other traditions, or direct attacks against one another will result in board discipline.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Mahayana Buddhism
Is it not so that a person must resolve to become a Buddha in the presence of a teaching Buddha to have the intention of becoming a Bodhisattva confirmed by a Tathagata the same way as if one wants to become a Chief Disciple? I also heard that only a Teaching Buddha has the ability to know if the aspiration will be fulfilled.
Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Mahayana Buddhism
I've created this thread so that we can discuss specifically the Bodhisattva ideal as taught in Theravada Buddhism:
https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f ... 70#p428770
It would be a misnomer to think the Bodhisattva ideal is exclusive to Mahayana Buddhism or that no Theravada Buddhists living today seek to become full Buddhas.
https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f ... 70#p428770
It would be a misnomer to think the Bodhisattva ideal is exclusive to Mahayana Buddhism or that no Theravada Buddhists living today seek to become full Buddhas.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi
http://www.matthewsatori.tumblr.com
http://www.matthewsatori.tumblr.com
Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Mahayana Buddhism
The texts say that parinirvāṇa is postponed, as one way of framing Bodhisattvayāna. Other texts say that the Buddha's diamond nature permeates parinirvāṇa, and there is no extinction within it on account of that. Like a molten iron ball cast into water, the heat is extinguished and the cool iron remains. Bodhisattvāḥ are enlightened, of that there is no doubt in Mahāyāna scriptures or oral teachings.davidbrainerd wrote:The common misconception I seem to keep encountering in both Theravada and Mahayana is that what the text literally says is a misconception.Santi253 wrote: The common misconception is that a Bodhisattva postpones their own enlightenment until all other beings are enlightened.
If the text says a Bodhisattva postpones their own enlightenment until all other beings are enlightened, Mahayanist says that's a misconception.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Mahayana Buddhism
Not wanting to read all that is here I ask: Is it that in theravada a bodhisattva is one on the path to enlightenment (and to buddhahood) and in mahayana a bodhisattva is already enlightened? If this is so then they are clearly two different things and it is misleading to use the same word for both.
chownah
chownah
Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Mahayana Buddhism
It's a common stock phrase in the Pali Canon where the Buddha said: "when I was still an unawakened Bodhisatta". I can't speak for Mahayana, but don't believe there's anything unequivocal about the idea of the already-enlightened Bodhisattva. At least we have not been presented with concrete sutras references (not sastra or Mahayana's later masters' commentary) in this thread. Anyway, I'm keeping an open mind and would love to see any Mahayana guru here to cite a concrete sutras reference that says otherwise.
Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Mahayana Buddhism
I remember when I first was really heavy into Theravada I thought Mahayana was a bunch of goofyness that took away from the directness of the Pali canon.
Time and experience with the teachings has shown me that the Pali canon is essential, Jhana and anapanasti are essential,
but!
Many of the subjects dealt with in Mahayana from many different vantage points are about drawing out the content of topics left farely bare in the suttas.
Emptiness,
Compassion,
Luminosity of mind,
These are are the leaves in the forest (reference for sutta readers).
Even now I can say I am still growing, I went to Zen and intense Zazen like Gyobutsuji Zen Monastery and thought that the Tantric stuff of Tibetan Buddhism was just kinda stupid and way off course.
Now I am starting to finally understand Dzogchen and I can say it provides a breadth and depth to the teachings near un-matched in some ways.
For those beginning and or only intermediate on the path do not think you know everything and disparage everything. With patience and time comes humblness.
In fact I would say if anything the further you go the more humble you will be become.
I close on this note though, Theravada and the Suttas in the pali canon are soooo important. If a Mahayana practicioner disregards them or disparages them they are absolutely off base in every possible way. There is no exception on that.
Time and experience with the teachings has shown me that the Pali canon is essential, Jhana and anapanasti are essential,
but!
Many of the subjects dealt with in Mahayana from many different vantage points are about drawing out the content of topics left farely bare in the suttas.
Emptiness,
Compassion,
Luminosity of mind,
These are are the leaves in the forest (reference for sutta readers).
Even now I can say I am still growing, I went to Zen and intense Zazen like Gyobutsuji Zen Monastery and thought that the Tantric stuff of Tibetan Buddhism was just kinda stupid and way off course.
Now I am starting to finally understand Dzogchen and I can say it provides a breadth and depth to the teachings near un-matched in some ways.
For those beginning and or only intermediate on the path do not think you know everything and disparage everything. With patience and time comes humblness.
In fact I would say if anything the further you go the more humble you will be become.
I close on this note though, Theravada and the Suttas in the pali canon are soooo important. If a Mahayana practicioner disregards them or disparages them they are absolutely off base in every possible way. There is no exception on that.
Practice, Practice, Practice
Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Mahayana Buddhism
Yes, that's what I've been saying.Coëmgenu wrote:The texts say that parinirvāṇa is postponed, as one way of framing Bodhisattvayāna.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi
http://www.matthewsatori.tumblr.com
http://www.matthewsatori.tumblr.com
Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Mahayana Buddhism
I am not a guru, but I can make a comment, you'll have to decide for yourself if its worth reading.santa100 wrote:I can't speak for Mahayana, but don't believe there's anything unequivocal about the idea of the already-enlightened Bodhisattva. At least we have not been presented with concrete sutras references (not sastra or Mahayana's later masters' commentary) in this thread.
I suppose its a bit of a grey area actually. It really depends whether you consider the Mahāyāna acalābhūmi as synonymous with "awakened" in the sense of saupādisesā ca nibbānadhātu. Mahāyāna Buddhism generally explicitly frames the realized bodhisattva higher or more refined in attainment than the arhat, I am thinking particularly of the Ten Realms cosmology of the Tiāntāi school, so if an arhat is considered awakened, than a bodhisattva surely is also, from a Mahāyāna perspective.
Mahāyāna complicates awakening, though, dividing it into layers of penetration, perhaps similar to the beforementioned saupādisesā ca nibbānadhātu & anupādisesā ca nibbānadhātu distinction, culminating in anuttarāsamyaksaṃbodhi, "highest awakening", the awakening of the Anuttarāsamyaksaṃbuddha.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Mahayana Buddhism
So, in theravada a bodhisatta is not awakened but in mahayana a bodhisattva is awakened but not completely?Santi253 wrote:Yes, that's what I've been saying.Coëmgenu wrote:The texts say that parinirvāṇa is postponed, as one way of framing Bodhisattvayāna.
Still two different things. Same word, two different concepts......be careful to not confuse them and start to think that they are the same thing.
chownah
Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Mahayana Buddhism
Like I've explained several times, Mahayana Buddhism teaches that, after death, the enlightened being remains active in the world, rather than transcending the world. This is the difference between the concepts of abiding and non-abiding Nirvana.chownah wrote:So, in theravada a bodhisatta is not awakened but in mahayana a bodhisattva is awakened but not completely?Santi253 wrote:Yes, that's what I've been saying.Coëmgenu wrote:The texts say that parinirvāṇa is postponed, as one way of framing Bodhisattvayāna.
Still two different things. Same word, two different concepts......be careful to not confuse them and start to think that they are the same thing.
chownah
Since the enlightened being sees beyond the duality of Nirvana and samsara, he or she is able to remain active in the world after physical death, rather than simply transcending it.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi
http://www.matthewsatori.tumblr.com
http://www.matthewsatori.tumblr.com
Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Mahayana Buddhism
Well, if you view the Jakata tales of the bodhisatta from a Mahāyāna perspective, than you are dealing with an account of the numerous expedient means of a bodhisattva on various bhūmi...chownah wrote:So, in theravada a bodhisatta is not awakened but in mahayana a bodhisattva is awakened but not completely?Santi253 wrote:Yes, that's what I've been saying.Coëmgenu wrote:The texts say that parinirvāṇa is postponed, as one way of framing Bodhisattvayāna.
Still two different things. Same word, two different concepts......be careful to not confuse them and start to think that they are the same thing.
chownah
Its an interesting question. I don't know if there is some kind of "official stance" as to what bhūmi "pre-Śākyamuni" (I wonder if he has one central name as "pre-Buddha bodhisattva"?) was "on" at what time. Its kind of an odd question, but I sort of like it. Its tangential to "actual" Buddhism, but it would be interesting to see if the cosmology was that detailed in certain scholastic traditions.
Of course all of this becomes much more complicated by narratives surrounding the Buddha such as those in the 16th varga of the Lotus Sūtra.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Mahayana Buddhism
So now I have done some more research, and yes, there is no such thing as an unenlightened bodhisattva in Mahāyāna Buddhism, but not all enlightenments are the same it seems.
I recall there being some teaching on DharmaWheel (I think Malcolm was talking about it?) about Theravāda arhants being stirred out of some kind of slumber to serve as bodhisattvas in the future by Maitreya, but I can't remember where that was. All the same, although it can be read as an attempt to be inclusive to Theravāda, it can also be read as supremacism.
I recall there being some teaching on DharmaWheel (I think Malcolm was talking about it?) about Theravāda arhants being stirred out of some kind of slumber to serve as bodhisattvas in the future by Maitreya, but I can't remember where that was. All the same, although it can be read as an attempt to be inclusive to Theravāda, it can also be read as supremacism.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Mahayana Buddhism
That's not exactly the case, since there are three types of Bodhisattvas in Mahayana Buddhism:Coëmgenu wrote:So now I have done some more research, and yes, there is no such thing as an unenlightened bodhisattva in Mahāyāna Buddhism
A boatman Bodhisattva is someone who, rather than postponing enlightenment or attaining enlightenment as quickly as possible, instead vows to attain enlightenment at the same time as helping all other beings attain enlightenment:king-like bodhisattva - one who aspires to become buddha as soon as possible and then help sentient beings in full fledge;
boatman-like bodhisattva - one who aspires to achieve buddhahood along with other sentient beings;
shepherd-like bodhisattva - one who aspires to delay buddhahood until all other sentient beings achieve buddhahood. Bodhisattvas like Avalokiteśvara and Śāntideva are believed to fall in this category.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhisattva
I have vowed to be a boatman-like Bodhisattva.the Bodhisattva Boatman aspires to become a Buddha simultaneously with other sentient beings, sharing their difficulties and encouraging them along the way
https://greatmiddleway.wordpress.com/20 ... -shepherd/
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi
http://www.matthewsatori.tumblr.com
http://www.matthewsatori.tumblr.com