Taoism

[PeterC86]

Unfortunately you seem to be presenting your own pet Tao here, based on little more than a sort of muddled perennialism.

Just because I see that two paths lead to the same summit, doesn't mean that all world religions are the same. Taoism and Buddhism clearly stand apart from any Theistic teaching. So you just make this perennialism your argument, to support your case/view/believe/pet to try and talk me down, which you need to support your own believe.

It makes perfect sense that Zen developed out of a synthesis between Taoism and Buddhism.

So you guys can make your own interpretations; the Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao.

Have fun!

Just repeating the slogan "the Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao" is no support whatsoever for your claim that the Tao and Nibbana are the same.
And of course Nibbana is clearly named and described in the suttas,

Taoism has a little in common with Zen, but appears to have very little in common with the early Buddhism of the suttas, which is what you're actually referring to here.
And Taoism is regarded by many as pantheistic, which would suggest that it actually has more in common with Hinduism than Buddhism.

I'm not trying to "talk you down", I am just disagreeing with you, and asking you to explain and support your opinions.

I don't hold a view, so there is no base for an argument. Nibbana is not a view, just like Tao is not a view. That's why I keep repeating that sentence. Either you get it or you don't.

And I am not referring to any sutta's, as I am not looking at Taoism from a buddhistic perspective, but look at both of them as how they are and where they lead to.

[Coëmgenu]

I was struck by the distinction between inside and outside.
Does this suggest that the "ten thousand things" is referring to the phenomenal world, or the surface world of appearances? If so, it's somewhat reminiscent of Maya.

It's also very reminiscent of the Tiāntāi threefold truth, another influence on Chán & Zen: the mystery is the surfaces are the secret is the convention is the ultimate is the middle etc.

I had quick browse of Tiantai Buddhism, very deep stuff! The threefold truth looks like a development of Nargajuna's analysis?

Sort of. "Tiāntāi," like all schools, is a diversity of voices, and modern Tiāntāi doesn't really exist anymore. The communists did a number on it in China and much of their individual practices and distinctiveness was lost. Priests were brought in from Japan (and I am using "priest" in a technical way here to differentiate vinaya-observant monastics and the Tantrika priesthood of Tendai) once this was allowed and some lineages were restarted, but from a Japanese Tendai pedagogical perspective -- not quite Tiāntāi and not quite not Tiāntāi. I've never been to China and am not an expert in Chinese Buddhism, this is just what I overhear. Take it with a healthy dose of "I don't believe you." I don't know if present-day Chinese Tiāntāi practitioners and monks (there is at least one temple in China) are Tantrikas like the Tendai priesthood.

With regards to the intersection of Madhyamaka and Tiāntāi, Ven Zhìyǐ quotes liberally from the Mahāprajñāpāramitopadeśa, which can arguably be thought of as a Sānlùn treatise. He was also almost-definitely of the opinion that Ven Nāgārjuna wrote it. He quotes from the Chinese recension of the Mūlamadhyamakakārikā he would have been familiar with as well as Ven Vimalākṣa's commentary that it circulated with. In his pànjiāo, the most antiquated and least useful of the hermeneutics Ven Zhìyǐ developed to sort the Buddhavacana, he places the 般若時 "Prajñā Era" as the second highest teaching of the Buddha, indicating a subordination of Madhyamaka by Ven Zhìyǐ in favour of the Lotus and Nirvāṇa scriptural traditions. This is further suggested when we reflect that it is quite possible that Ven Zhìyǐ associated Madhyamaka in general with the Prajñāpāramitā tradition and wouldn't be the first to do so. After all, the Mahāyānika pseudo-Abhidharmaśāstra, the definitive Buddhist encyclopedia if you will, of his time and place was the aforementioned Mahāprajñāpāramitopadeśa, a massive commentary on the Pañcaviṁśatisāhasrikā believed to be authored by Ven Nāgārjuna himself (but possibly by Ven Kumārajīva).

But as I said, all schools are a diversity of voices. I can find the paper in a bit, but basically as successive Tiāntāi patriarchs add onto and interpret Ven Zhìyǐ's philosophies there is a tendency to speak in increasingly disparaging terms of Madhyamaka as an inferior or lacking view, often equated with nihilism. Ven Vimalākṣa comes under particular attack by the Tiāntāi (and Huáyán and Chán alike) with accusations of Madhyamaka nihilism. Venerables Zhànrán and Zhílì took particular issue with Madhyamaka as nihilism, branding their own schools' philosophies as positivist.

This nihilism vs positivism tension is anticipated in the preface of Ven Zhìyǐ's disciple, Ven Guàndǐng, to the abbot's magnum opus, Mahāśamathavipaśyanā (itself authored by Ven Zhìyǐ's students, including Ven Guàndǐng, based on his lectures in life):

Nan-yüeh studied under the dhyāna master Hui-wen, who was without equal in the area of the Yellow River and Huai River during the reign of Kao-tsu of the Northern Ch'i dynasty. His teachings were not understood by the people of his day, as people who tread the earth and gaze at the sky do not know the depth of the earth nor the height of the sky. Hui-wen exclusively relied on the Mahāprajñāpāramitopadeśa for his mental discipline. This treatise was taught by Nāgārjuna, the thirteenth in the line of the transmission of the treasury of the Dharma. In his Treatise on Contemplating Thoughts, Zhìyǐ says, "I entrust myself to the teacher Nāgārjuna." Thus we know that Nāgārjuna was the highest patriarch [of the T'ien-t'ai lineage].

A skeptic might say, "The method of the Madhyamakaśāstra is to clear away, while śamathavipaśyanā is constructive. How can they be considered the same?" However, it should be known that there are about seventy Indian commentaries on Nāgārjuna's Mūlamadhyamakakārikā; we should not affirm only that of Vimalākṣa and reject other commentators. The Madhyamakaśāstra says:

All things that arise through causes and conditions,
I explain as emptiness,
Again, this is a conventional designation.
Again, this is the meaning of the middle way.

(T1911.1b27 Mahāśamathavipaśyanā translated as Clear Serenity, Quiet Insight p.91-2 by Paul Swanson, some Chinese changed to Sanskrit, Wades-Giles to Pinyin, & emphasis added)

So we can see already immediately after Ven Zhìyǐ's death that Ven Vimalākṣa is getting shade from Ven Zhìyǐ's students, with later successors to consider even Ven Nāgārjuna a nihilist and Madhyamaka wisdom secondary to the "Integrated Teaching" (a Tiāntāi term for its own style of Buddhism).

[Coëmgenu]

I think we can get back to the subject of Daoism through returning to the much-maligned Venerable Vimalākṣa spoken of above. From his commentary to the ātmaparīkṣā, specifically focussing on the simile of the ocean (I can't remember if I've already posted this on DhammaWheel or not):

Some people teach that there is a soul, in which case it must be of two kinds. Either the five skandhas are themselves the soul, or the soul exists apart from the five skandhas.

If the five skandhas are the soul, then the soul will have the characteristics of arising and ceasing. Thus it says in the verse ‘if the soul is the five skandhas it will have the characteristics of arising and ceasing’, and why? Becuase once arisen, it will perish. Because they have the characteristics of arising and ceasing, the five skandhas have no permanence, and just as the five skandhas have no permanence, the two dharmas of arising and ceasing likewise have no permanence. Why is this? Because arising and ceasing also perish after they have arisen and hence are impermanent. If the soul were the five skandhas, then, since the five skandhas are impermanent, the soul would also be impermanent and would have the characteristics of arising and ceasing, but this is not correct.

If the soul existed apart from the five skandhas, the soul would not have the characteristics of the five skandhas. As it says in the verse: ‘if the soul is different from the five skandhas, then it will not have the characteristics of the five skandhas’. Yet no other dharma exists apart from the five skandhas. If there were any such dharma apart from the five skandhas, by virtue of what characteristics, or what dharmas, would it exist? If you say that the soul is like empty space, separate from the five skandhas yet existent, this is also wrong, and why? We have already refuted empty space in the chapter on refuting the six elements. No dhama called ‘empty space’ exists.

If you assert that a soul exists because belief in it exists, this is not correct, and why? Belief is of four kinds; the first is belief in a manifest thing, the second is belief in something known through this manifest thing as when seeing smoke, we know that there is a fire. The third is belief by analogy as when, in a country with no copper, one uses the example of it being like gold. The fourth is belief in what is taught by saints and sages, as when they say that there are hells, heavens and uttarakuru. Without seeing anything, we believe the words of the holy men and thus know about them.

Such a ‘soul’ cannot be found amongst these beliefs. It is not found in belief in manifest things, nor in inferential belief, and why? Inferential knowledge means that having previously seen something, you thenceforth know (about) this kind of thing, as for example a man who has previously seen that where there is fire there is smoke, subsequently, seeing only smoke, knows that there is fire. The concept of ‘soul’ is not like this, for who could first have seen the soul in the combination of the five skandhas, such that afterwards, seeing the five skandhas, he knows that there is a soul?

Suppose you say that there are three kinds of inferential knowledge, the first being ‘like the original’, the second being ‘like the remainder’, the third ‘seeing together’. ‘Like the original’ means previously having seen that fire has smoke, seeing smoke now, you know that it is like the original which had fire. ‘Like the remainder’ means, for example, that when one grain of rice is cooked, you know that the remaining ones are all cooked. ‘Seeing together’ means, for example, that when you see with your eyes a person going from hereto another place, you also see his going. The sun is like this. It emerges from the east and goes to the west. Although you do not see it going, because a man has the characteristic of going, you know that the sun also has going. In the same way suffering, pleasure, hate, desire, and insight, etc. must also have whatever goes with them. For example, seeing subjects you know that they must rely on some king. But these are all incorrect, and why?

In belief through the characteristic of together-ness, having first seen a person combined with a dharma of ‘going’ who reaches some other place, when you subsequently see the sun reach another place you know that there is the dharma of ‘going’. But there is no prior seeing of the five skandhas combined with a soul, such that subsequently seeing the five skandhas you know that there is a soul. Therefore, no existence of a soul can be established by inferential knowledge of ‘together-ness’.

There is no soul to be found within the teachings of the saints either, and why? In the teaching of the saints, what they first see with their eyes, they subsequently expound. And since the saints teach other things which can be believed, we should know that when they speak of the hells, etc., these can be believed in, but it is not so with the soul, for there is no-one who, having previously seen a soul, subsequently speaks of it.

Therefore, you may seek for a soul within all beliefs such as these four types of belief, but you will not be able to find it. Since you cannot find a soul even though you seek for it, no distinct soul exists separate from the five skandhas.

Further, because of the refutation of seeing, seer and seen in the chapter refuting the six sense faculties, the soul is to be refuted in the same way. For if even an eye seeing coarse dharmas cannot be found, how much less can we find a soul by empty delusions, imagination and so forth? For these reasons, we know that there is no self.

‘Mine’ exists because ‘I’ exists. If there is no I, then there is no mine. Through putting into practice the holy eight-fold path and extinguishing the causes of I and mine, one attains the firm insight of no I and no mine.

Question: Even though non-self is the truth, what is wrong with teaching, merely as a convention, that there is a self?

Reply: Non-self exists by virtue of the negation of the dharma of self. No fixed self can be found, so how could there be non-self? If there were a fixed non-self, then annihilation of if would give rise to attachment and craving. As it says in the Prajñāpāramitā, if a bodhisattva has a self, he cannot act, and if he has no self, he cannot act.

Question: If it teaches neither self nor non-self, neither emptiness nor non-emptiness, what does the Buddha-dharma teach?

Reply: The Buddha teaches the true character of all dharmas, and within that true character there is no path for verbal expressions, for it extinguishes all mental activity. Mind arises because of the characteristic of grasping, exists because of the rewards and retribution of karma in a previous world, and cannot therefore see the true character of dharmas. The Buddha teaches the cessation of mental activities.

Question: Even though an unenlightened person’s mind cannot see the reality, surely a saint’s mind can see the reality? Why does he teach the cessation of all mental activities?

Reply: The true character of dharmas is nirvana, and cessation means nirvana. It is in order to point towards nirvana, that cessation is also termed cessation. If one’s mind were real, what use would be such ways to liberation as emptiness, etc? Why, amongst all the samadhis would the samadhi of cessation be regarded as the highest, and why ultimately reach nirvana without residue?

Therefore we should know that all mental activities are empty deceptions, and as empty deceptions, should cease. The true character of all dharmas surpasses all dharmas of mental phenomena, has no arising and no ceasing, and has the characteristic of calming and extinction solely.

Question: In the sutras it says that all dharmas, having from the beginning the characteristic of calm extinction are themselves nirvana. Why do you say that they are like nirvana?

Reply: Those who are attached to dharmas classify dharmas into two kinds, some being worldly, some being of nirvana. They say that the nirvana dharmas are calm and extinct, but do not say that the worldly dharmas are calm and extinct. In this treatise it is taught that all dharmas are empty in nature and have the characteristic of calm extinction. Since those who are attached to dharmas do not understand this, nirvana is used as an example. Just as with your assertion that the characteristic of nirvana is emptiness, with no characteristics, calm extinction, and no vain thoughts, so it is with all worldly dharmas.

Question: If the Buddhas do not teach self, non-self, and the cessation of all mental activities and the cutting-off of ways of verbal expression, how do they make people understand the real character of dharmas?

Reply: All the Buddhas have unlimited powers of skilful means, and dharmas have no fixed characteristics. In order to save all living beings, they may teach that everything is real, or they may teach that everything is unreal, or that everything is both real and unreal or that everything is neither unreal nor not unreal. If you search for a real nature of dharmas, you will find that they all enter into the ultimate meaning and become equal, with identical characteristics, which is to say no characteristics, just like streams of different colour and different tastes entering into a great ocean of one colour and one taste. At the time when one has not yet penetrated into the true character of dharmas, each one can be contemplated separately as unreal, existing merely by the combinations of conditions. There are three levels of living beings; superior, average and inferior. The superior person sees that the characteristic of dharmas is that they are neither real nor unreal. The average person sees the characteristics of dharmas as either all real, or all unreal. The inferior man, since his powers of perception are limited, sees the characteristics of dharmas as a little real, and a little unreal, regarding nirvana, because it is an inactive dharma and does not perish as real, and regarding samsara, because it is an active dharma, empty and false, as unreal. Neither unreal nor not unreal is taught in order to negate ‘both real and unreal’.

(T1564.24a15 Madhyamakaśāstra: 有人說神。應有二種。若五陰即是神。若離 五陰有神。[etc.], translation Brian Christopher Bocking)

So there's your allegedly nihilist Madhyamaka Buddhism. The simile of the streams entering into the ocean can be taken in a variety of ways, some of which are like the Dao and Brahman -- but this is a Mādhyamika speaking and IMO the most important/characteristic part of the passage is where it is specified that the characteristics of phenomena are identical only so far as the phenomena have no characteristics. This can IMO be extended as a principle to the matter of the colours and tastes in the ocean simile.

Tricky, tricky, tricky...

[PeterC86]

My investigation into Taoism is related to a more broad investigation into the way to liberation from different teachings. The connection to other paths can be found in this topic; viewtopic.php?f=16&t=36821&start=90#p555520

[Coëmgenu]

That's good. Investigations should be broad.

[auto]

Here is the original in Chinese for the first two sentences

道 可 道 非 常 道
名 可 名 非 常 名

A Tao(道) that can be (可) a Tao (道) is not (非) an eternal (常) Tao (道)
A Name(名) that can be (可) a Name (名) is not (非) an eternal (常) Name (名)

This means if something exists as a "Tao" then it cannot be eternally as that same "Tao" without changing. Similarly, if something exists as a "Name" then it cannot be that "Name" forever. Why? Because the impermanence of all things. If something exists then it must change and cannot be the same forever. This is talking about the law of impermanence. That's how I understand.

Thank you for the translation. Yes it tries to show that if something can have a name, it is already not what Tao is about. In that sense, it is exactly the same as Nibbana. The approach how to get there, the Way, or Middle Way, is also the same. Taoism doesn't seem to learn dependent origination, but this is irrelevant if one is in perfect tune with nature and one's feelings, and realizes that nothing can be named because of impermanence. That is the same state and understanding as to where dependent origination leads to.

It is just plain arrogance, out of ignorance, if Buddhists think that Buddhism goes any further.

If you can name it, then it is not Tao, it is like a control loop to check if what you practice or cultivate is the Tao. The 'eternal' refers to the practice results what will be brought to the heaven. The Tao what can be named will not go further than earth.

The practiser would make a grave mistake if he sat motionless to cultivate (essential) nature while disregarding (eternal) life....

practiser of the Tao should preserve his physical body with the same care as he would a precious gem. He should know that: Without the body the Tao cannot be attained. But with the body Truth never can be realized.

True nature is prenatal vitality in its cell(ch'i pao) on top of the medulla oblongata. If vitality is allowed to pass through the back of the head and down to the base of the spine to drain away through the anus and genital organ, it exhaustion will cause death.
The exhaustion of vitality is no way related to the breath what comes in and out through the nostrils and mouth.
In nocturnal emissions the generative fluid carries with it(some) vitality which thus leaves its vibrating cell in the center of the brain to pass into the spine and then reach its base to drain away. It is this vitality which animates spermatozoa which, in its absence, become lifeless and non-productive. This cell is linked with the brain above it, the base of the spine below and the whole nervous system in the body and is the source of vital energy of life.

[freedom]

If you can name it, then it is not Tao, it is like a control loop to check if what you practice or cultivate is the Tao. The 'eternal' refers to the practice results what will be brought to the heaven. The Tao what can be named will not go further than earth.

As I understand, the first 2 sentences are not about naming.

A Tao (道) that can be (可) a Tao (道) is not (非) an eternal (常) Tao (道)
A Name(名) that can be (可) a Name (名) is not (非) an eternal (常) Name (名)

This is about the physical existence of something. If something physically exists, even if it has no name, it must change and cannot stay the same forever. This shows that the eternal Tao is not something that physically exists. It is not something that we can see, touch, smell, hear...

Laotzu did named "that eternal" as Tao(道). In Buddhism, the final goal is named as nibbana. If we can see, touch, smell, hear nibbana then it is not eternal nibbana (at least by Daoism).

[Coëmgenu]

No one seems to want to read the ending of that chapter.....

I mean, it makes sense, given the reading most people here want to read into the text why people would be hesitant to read too much of it. After all, once you've read, then you speak, then you name, etc.

It's something deeper than mere non-conceptual cognition. It's something deeper than just throwing your words away and pretending to have no more prapañca.

[auto]

If you can name it, then it is not Tao, it is like a control loop to check if what you practice or cultivate is the Tao. The 'eternal' refers to the practice results what will be brought to the heaven. The Tao what can be named will not go further than earth.

As I understand, the first 2 sentences are not about naming.

A Tao (道) that can be (可) a Tao (道) is not (非) an eternal (常) Tao (道)
A Name(名) that can be (可) a Name (名) is not (非) an eternal (常) Name (名)

This is about the physical existence of something. If something physically exists, even if it has no name, it must change and cannot stay the same forever. This shows that the eternal Tao is not something that physically exists. It is not something that we can see, touch, smell, hear...

Laotzu did named "that eternal" as Tao(道). In Buddhism, the final goal is named as nibbana. If we can see, touch, smell, hear nibbana then it is not eternal nibbana (at least by Daoism).

Well, ok, but somehow this needs to be understood to the level of a marrow in a physical body.

[auto]

No one seems to want to read the ending of that chapter.....

I mean, it makes sense, given the reading most people here want to read into the text why people would be hesitant to read too much of it. After all, once you've read, then you speak, then you name, etc.

It's something deeper than mere non-conceptual cognition. It's something deeper than just throwing your words away and pretending to have no more prapañca.

You know what PeterC86 will say to it,

I don't hold a view, so there is no base for an argument. Nibbana is not a view, just like Tao is not a view. That's why I keep repeating that sentence. Either you get it or you don't.

its like murder saying i didn't do it even tho there is video evidence. It is psychopathic.

[Coëmgenu]

Eccentric maybe, but I wouldn't say psychopathic myself.

He has a "reading" of the text he likes to put forth, and he has, like other people. Like myself.

[auto]

Eccentric maybe, but I wouldn't say psychopathic myself.

He has a "reading" of the text he likes to put forth, and he has, like other people. Like myself.

That what he writes can't be held accountable on him, he will tell you, he won't hold any view. = psychopath.

[Ontheway]

This religion is quite mysterious to me.

And I think this religion is more likely reduced to rites and rituals involved many gods and goddesses, like what happened in Taiwan Taoism communities.

I found a chanting video of Taoism (I believed it is belongs to Quan Zhen sect of Taoism?) Quite different from Chinese Mahayana style of chanting. Anyone good in classical Chinese Mandarin? Maybe can help translate a bit of what they recite?



Their "Taoist Paritta" chanting?


A lot of screaming though and I saw that there is a Chinese phrase "龍樹" in the chanting video (21:01) , aren't that "Nagarjuna"? (I used Google translate)

[Ontheway]

......

Anyone good in classical Chinese Mandarin? Maybe can help translate a bit of what they recite?


......

Found it. Thanks to the almighty Google.

太上清靜經
The Scripture of Constant Purity and Tranquility that is told by Taishang laojun

老君曰：大道無形，生育天地。
Laojun said: The Great Dao or Way is formless, yet it generates heaven and earth.

大道無情，運行日月。
The Great Dao has no feelings, yet it regulates the operation of the sun and the moon.

大道無名，長養萬物。
The Great Dao is nameless, yet it raises and nourishes all things.

吾不知其名，強名曰：「 道。」
I do not know its name, so I grudgingly name it as the Dao.

夫道者，有清有濁，有動有靜。
The Dao harbors within itself the attributes of purity, turbidity, movement and tranquility.

天清地濁，天動地靜，男清女濁，男動女靜。
Heaven is pure and the earth is turbid. Heaven is moving and the earth is tranquil. The male is pure and the female is turbid. The male is moving and the female is tranquil.

降本流末，而生萬物。
The Dao descends and transforms itself from the origin toward the end in order to generate the myriad things.

清者濁之源。動者靜之基。(此句應改作「靜者動之基」。)
Purity is the original source of turbidity. Movement is the substratum of tranquility. (This should be read as “Tranquility is the substratum of movement.”)

人能常清靜，天地悉皆歸。
If people can be tranquil constantly, they can achieve union with heaven and earth and then return to the Dao.

夫人神好清而心擾之，人心好靜而慾牽之。
The human spirit likes purity, but it is disturbed by the uncontrolled heart-mind.
The human mind loves tranquility, but it is led astray by desires.

常能遣其慾而心自靜，澄其心而神自清。
Constant elimination of desires will lead to the tranquility of mind, and the constant cleaning of the heart-mind will lead to the purity of spirit.

自然六欲不生，三毒消滅。
As a result, the six desires will not arise naturally, and the three poisons (the three unwholesome mental states of greed, hatred, and delusion) will also be destroyed.

所以不能者，惟心未澄，欲未遣也。
Whoever fails to do this is because he is unable to clean his mind and eliminate his desires.

能遣之者，內觀於心 (李道純注本作「內觀其心」)，心無其心。
Those who have successfully eliminated their desires can proceed to observe their minds through introspection and realize that there is actually no mind.

外觀於形 (李道純注本作「外觀其形」)，形無其形。
Then they observe their bodies from without and realize that there is actually no body.

遠觀於物 (李道純注本作「遠觀其物」)，物無其物。
Then they observe the external phenomena by glancing out afar and realize that all external things do not exist.

三者既悟，惟見於空。
Once they have understood these three truths, they can observe emptiness.

觀空以空 (李道純注本作「觀空亦空」)，空無所空。
They observe emptiness from the standpoint of emptiness and realize that emptiness is also empty, and then they realize that there is no emptiness that can be emptied anymore.

所空既無，無無亦無。
When emptiness becomes nothing, the nothingness of nothingness should also be reduced to nothing..

無無既無，湛然常寂。
Without the attachment to the existence of the nothingness of nothingness, they can achieve a profound state of constant tranquility.

寂無所寂，欲豈能生？
Once the state of tranquility reaches its limit, how can desires arise?

欲既不生，即是真靜。
Without the rising of desires, you can achieve true tranquility.

真靜應物 (李道純注本作「真常應物」)，真常得性。
With true tranquility you can go along with all things. With true permanence you can realize your inner Daoist nature.

常應常靜，常清靜矣。
You can go along with all things constantly, and you can be tranquil forever. In this way, purity and tranquility will be permanent.

如此清靜，漸入真道。
Within such a pure and tranquil state, you will gradually enter the true Dao.

既入真道，名為得道。
Since you have entered into the true Dao, you can be regarded as having acquired the Dao.

雖名得道，實無所得。
Although we name this stage as the attainment of the Dao, we actually acquire nothing.

為化眾生，名為得道。
In order to teach and transform the sentimental beings easily, we name this stage as the attainment of the Dao.

能悟之者，可傳聖道。
Those who can realize this teaching are worthy to transmit the holy path.

老君曰：上士無爭，下士好爭。
Laojun said: The highest gentleman does not compete with others, yet the lesser gentleman loves to compete with others.

上德不德，下德執德。
Those who possess the highest virtue do not flaunt their virtue, whereas those who possess the lesser virtue cling to their virtue.

執著之者，不明道德。
Those who cling and attach to virtue do not understand the true meaning and nature of virtue.

眾生所以不得真道者，惟有妄心。
Living beings fail to acquire the true Dao because they are affected by their deviant and uncontrolled minds.

既有妄心，即驚其神。
Since they possess the deviant and uncontrolled minds, their spirit is startled.

既驚其神，即著萬物。
Since their spirit is startled, they start to cling to the myriad things.

既著萬物， 即生貪求。
Since they cling to the myriad things, they desire to own them.

既生貪求，即是煩惱。
Since covetousness generates within them, they are troubled by vexation.

煩惱妄想，憂苦身心，便遭濁辱，流浪生死。
Vexation and deviant thought will trouble and pester our bodies and minds. They will cause us to fall into turbidity and shame, and then we will be trapped in the cycle of birth and death.

常沉苦海，永失真道。
Drowning in the sea of suffering eternally, we will lose the true Dao forever.

真常之道，悟者自得。
The true and permanent Dao can only be acquired by those who have reached enlightenment.

得悟道者，常清靜矣。
Those who have acquired the Dao and attained enlightenment will rest forever in a state of purity and tranquility.

https://l1i9c4h3e0n.pixnet.net/blog/pos ... c%e7%b6%93

Taishang LaoJun
I think this is their Grand Master?

Once the state of tranquility reaches its limit, how can desires arise?

Jhanas?

[form]

......

Anyone good in classical Chinese Mandarin? Maybe can help translate a bit of what they recite?


......

Found it. Thanks to the almighty Google.

太上清靜經
The Scripture of Constant Purity and Tranquility that is told by Taishang laojun

老君曰：大道無形，生育天地。
Laojun said: The Great Dao or Way is formless, yet it generates heaven and earth.

大道無情，運行日月。
The Great Dao has no feelings, yet it regulates the operation of the sun and the moon.

大道無名，長養萬物。
The Great Dao is nameless, yet it raises and nourishes all things.

吾不知其名，強名曰：「 道。」
I do not know its name, so I grudgingly name it as the Dao.

夫道者，有清有濁，有動有靜。
The Dao harbors within itself the attributes of purity, turbidity, movement and tranquility.

天清地濁，天動地靜，男清女濁，男動女靜。
Heaven is pure and the earth is turbid. Heaven is moving and the earth is tranquil. The male is pure and the female is turbid. The male is moving and the female is tranquil.

降本流末，而生萬物。
The Dao descends and transforms itself from the origin toward the end in order to generate the myriad things.

清者濁之源。動者靜之基。(此句應改作「靜者動之基」。)
Purity is the original source of turbidity. Movement is the substratum of tranquility. (This should be read as “Tranquility is the substratum of movement.”)

人能常清靜，天地悉皆歸。
If people can be tranquil constantly, they can achieve union with heaven and earth and then return to the Dao.

夫人神好清而心擾之，人心好靜而慾牽之。
The human spirit likes purity, but it is disturbed by the uncontrolled heart-mind.
The human mind loves tranquility, but it is led astray by desires.

常能遣其慾而心自靜，澄其心而神自清。
Constant elimination of desires will lead to the tranquility of mind, and the constant cleaning of the heart-mind will lead to the purity of spirit.

自然六欲不生，三毒消滅。
As a result, the six desires will not arise naturally, and the three poisons (the three unwholesome mental states of greed, hatred, and delusion) will also be destroyed.

所以不能者，惟心未澄，欲未遣也。
Whoever fails to do this is because he is unable to clean his mind and eliminate his desires.

能遣之者，內觀於心 (李道純注本作「內觀其心」)，心無其心。
Those who have successfully eliminated their desires can proceed to observe their minds through introspection and realize that there is actually no mind.

外觀於形 (李道純注本作「外觀其形」)，形無其形。
Then they observe their bodies from without and realize that there is actually no body.

遠觀於物 (李道純注本作「遠觀其物」)，物無其物。
Then they observe the external phenomena by glancing out afar and realize that all external things do not exist.

三者既悟，惟見於空。
Once they have understood these three truths, they can observe emptiness.

觀空以空 (李道純注本作「觀空亦空」)，空無所空。
They observe emptiness from the standpoint of emptiness and realize that emptiness is also empty, and then they realize that there is no emptiness that can be emptied anymore.

所空既無，無無亦無。
When emptiness becomes nothing, the nothingness of nothingness should also be reduced to nothing..

無無既無，湛然常寂。
Without the attachment to the existence of the nothingness of nothingness, they can achieve a profound state of constant tranquility.

寂無所寂，欲豈能生？
Once the state of tranquility reaches its limit, how can desires arise?

欲既不生，即是真靜。
Without the rising of desires, you can achieve true tranquility.

真靜應物 (李道純注本作「真常應物」)，真常得性。
With true tranquility you can go along with all things. With true permanence you can realize your inner Daoist nature.

常應常靜，常清靜矣。
You can go along with all things constantly, and you can be tranquil forever. In this way, purity and tranquility will be permanent.

如此清靜，漸入真道。
Within such a pure and tranquil state, you will gradually enter the true Dao.

既入真道，名為得道。
Since you have entered into the true Dao, you can be regarded as having acquired the Dao.

雖名得道，實無所得。
Although we name this stage as the attainment of the Dao, we actually acquire nothing.

為化眾生，名為得道。
In order to teach and transform the sentimental beings easily, we name this stage as the attainment of the Dao.

能悟之者，可傳聖道。
Those who can realize this teaching are worthy to transmit the holy path.

老君曰：上士無爭，下士好爭。
Laojun said: The highest gentleman does not compete with others, yet the lesser gentleman loves to compete with others.

上德不德，下德執德。
Those who possess the highest virtue do not flaunt their virtue, whereas those who possess the lesser virtue cling to their virtue.

執著之者，不明道德。
Those who cling and attach to virtue do not understand the true meaning and nature of virtue.

眾生所以不得真道者，惟有妄心。
Living beings fail to acquire the true Dao because they are affected by their deviant and uncontrolled minds.

既有妄心，即驚其神。
Since they possess the deviant and uncontrolled minds, their spirit is startled.

既驚其神，即著萬物。
Since their spirit is startled, they start to cling to the myriad things.

既著萬物， 即生貪求。
Since they cling to the myriad things, they desire to own them.

既生貪求，即是煩惱。
Since covetousness generates within them, they are troubled by vexation.

煩惱妄想，憂苦身心，便遭濁辱，流浪生死。
Vexation and deviant thought will trouble and pester our bodies and minds. They will cause us to fall into turbidity and shame, and then we will be trapped in the cycle of birth and death.

常沉苦海，永失真道。
Drowning in the sea of suffering eternally, we will lose the true Dao forever.

真常之道，悟者自得。
The true and permanent Dao can only be acquired by those who have reached enlightenment.

得悟道者，常清靜矣。
Those who have acquired the Dao and attained enlightenment will rest forever in a state of purity and tranquility.

https://l1i9c4h3e0n.pixnet.net/blog/pos ... c%e7%b6%93

IMG_20220124_192918.jpg
Taishang LaoJun
I think this is their Grand Master?

Once the state of tranquility reaches its limit, how can desires arise?

Jhanas?

Nature is Tao. Tao is nature.

Nothing else.