Taoism

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
PeterC86
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Re: Taoism

Post by PeterC86 »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:23 am Ad infinitum, endless walks the walker on the path of suffering.
Ad infinitum is your search going to be. ;)
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Taoism

Post by Coëmgenu »

Do you really want this game to be played?

It can be played, and is played, "ad infinitum."
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
PeterC86
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Re: Taoism

Post by PeterC86 »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:54 am Do you really want this game to be played?

It can be played, and is played, "ad infinitum."
Now I understand why he wrote it the way he did. Genius!

The balance is between left and right.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Taoism

Post by Coëmgenu »

Or is the balance between "left and right" and non-"left and right?"

Oooooooo mystery of mysteries! Spooky secret door!
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
PeterC86
Posts: 1412
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:06 pm

Re: Taoism

Post by PeterC86 »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:40 am Or is the balance between "left and right" and non-"left and right?"

Oooooooo mystery of mysteries! Spooky secret door!
I don't know what you are talking about my friend, but I wish you a good night.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Taoism

Post by Coëmgenu »

Mysteries!

*whoooooosh*
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Spiny Norman
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Re: Taoism

Post by Spiny Norman »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:58 am Mysteries!

*whoooooosh*
I do like a good mystery. :tongue:
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Spiny Norman
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Re: Taoism

Post by Spiny Norman »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:03 pm One layer of meaning that might add context: 天地 means "heaven and earth" and is a Chinese euphemism for "everything." 萬物 means "10,000 things" and is a Chinese euphemism for "all things."

Reading so, we can read:

Without a name, is it the wellspring of everything.
With a name, it is the mother of everything.

They are two equivalent statements consisting of two differently worded "everythings," hence why their sameness is the mystery of all mysteries, the door to all secrets.

This is elaborated in the Héshàng Gōng (~200AD), a "commentary" to the Dàodéjīng named after its author. I say "commentary" because it's not at all the sort of "commentarial" text that seeks to expand the original in the sense of analyzing the source text with quotations and comments on them. Instead, it is like a deep meditation on the themes of each chapter.
The always present name is like a child who has not yet spoken,
like an egg not yet opened,
like the bright pearl in the clam,
and like beautiful jade in the centre of a stone.
Although inside it is bright and shining,
its outside is stupid and dull.
The "named" and the "eternal Dao" are one and the same. The mystery and the surfaces are one and the same similarly. The passionate and the dispassionate are one and the same.
Interesting commentary from Heshang Gong and I was struck by the distinction between inside and outside.
Does this suggest that the "ten thousand things" is referring to the phenomenal world, or the surface world of appearances? If so, it's somewhat reminiscent of Maya.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Spiny Norman
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Re: Taoism

Post by Spiny Norman »

beanyan wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:21 pm
khemindas wrote: Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:47 am Taoism praise infant or baby as highest ideal, while Buddha explained why it is wrong.

For example in Tao te ching:
" But I alone remain quiet and calm like an infant who is pure and innocent."
Being a valley of the world and not depart from the true nature, once can return to original pureness like an infant"

While Buddha explained that infant is impure and incomplete:
You're taking it too literally. Tao Te Ching is more like Koans. Its clearly from its influence that Zen came up with the idea of koans.
I'm not sure I agree, and I have read descriptions of Taoism as being pantheistic.

Bear in mind that Zen resulted indirectly from a synthesis of Taoism and Buddhism (via Chan), so viewing Taoism through a Zen or Buddhist lens is bound to be misleading.

That's why I was questioning the claim made by another poster that the Tao and Nibbana are basically the same.
They're clearly not, and comparing Taoism with Theravada is highly problematic.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Taoism

Post by Coëmgenu »

Dinsdale wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:02 amI was struck by the distinction between inside and outside.
Does this suggest that the "ten thousand things" is referring to the phenomenal world, or the surface world of appearances? If so, it's somewhat reminiscent of Maya.
It's also very reminiscent of the Tiāntāi threefold truth, another influence on Chán & Zen: the mystery is the surfaces are the secret is the convention is the ultimate is the middle etc.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
PeterC86
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Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:06 pm

Re: Taoism

Post by PeterC86 »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:21 am Of course.

The thing is, we're talking about something deeper than simple non-conceptuality and mere non-dualism. The named and the unnamed, the way trod and the unwalked way, the passionate and the dispassionate, the conceptual and the non-conceptual, the dual and the non-dual, are one and the same. Their sameness is a mystery, etc., etc., ad infinitum.
Yes that is why you have to let it go, you cannot make any absolute distinctions; the Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao. So their sameness is not a mystery, they are just two sides of the same coin; dependent origination; Nibbana.

I will stop here. Any more attempts to explain would only result in repeating myself. Either you get it or you don't. If you don't, you can make your pet Tao, because the text is elusive on purpose.
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Re: Taoism

Post by Spiny Norman »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:47 am
Dinsdale wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:02 amI was struck by the distinction between inside and outside.
Does this suggest that the "ten thousand things" is referring to the phenomenal world, or the surface world of appearances? If so, it's somewhat reminiscent of Maya.
It's also very reminiscent of the Tiāntāi threefold truth, another influence on Chán & Zen: the mystery is the surfaces are the secret is the convention is the ultimate is the middle etc.
I had quick browse of Tiantai Buddhism, very deep stuff! The threefold truth looks like a development of Nargajuna's analysis?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Spiny Norman
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Re: Taoism

Post by Spiny Norman »

PeterC86 wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:14 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:21 am Of course.

The thing is, we're talking about something deeper than simple non-conceptuality and mere non-dualism. The named and the unnamed, the way trod and the unwalked way, the passionate and the dispassionate, the conceptual and the non-conceptual, the dual and the non-dual, are one and the same. Their sameness is a mystery, etc., etc., ad infinitum.
Yes that is why you have to let it go, you cannot make any absolute distinctions; the Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao. So their sameness is not a mystery, they are just two sides of the same coin; dependent origination; Nibbana.

I will stop here. Any more attempts to explain would only result in repeating myself. Either you get it or you don't. If you don't, you can make your pet Tao, because the text is elusive on purpose.
Unfortunately you seem to be presenting your own pet Tao here, based on little more than a sort of muddled perennialism. Thereby misrepresenting both Taoism and Early Buddhism.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
PeterC86
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Re: Taoism

Post by PeterC86 »

Dinsdale wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:28 am
PeterC86 wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:14 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:21 am Of course.

The thing is, we're talking about something deeper than simple non-conceptuality and mere non-dualism. The named and the unnamed, the way trod and the unwalked way, the passionate and the dispassionate, the conceptual and the non-conceptual, the dual and the non-dual, are one and the same. Their sameness is a mystery, etc., etc., ad infinitum.
Yes that is why you have to let it go, you cannot make any absolute distinctions; the Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao. So their sameness is not a mystery, they are just two sides of the same coin; dependent origination; Nibbana.

I will stop here. Any more attempts to explain would only result in repeating myself. Either you get it or you don't. If you don't, you can make your pet Tao, because the text is elusive on purpose.
Unfortunately you seem to be presenting your own pet Tao here, based on little more than a sort of muddled perennialism.
Just because I see that two paths lead to the same summit, doesn't mean that all world religions are the same. Taoism and Buddhism clearly stand apart from any Theistic teaching. So you just make this perennialism your argument, to support your case/view/believe/pet to try and talk me down, which you need to support your own believe.

It makes perfect sense that Zen developed out of a synthesis between Taoism and Buddhism. That said, I am going to have a look at Zen.

So you guys can make your own interpretations; the Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao.

Have fun!
Spiny Norman
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Re: Taoism

Post by Spiny Norman »

PeterC86 wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:55 am
Dinsdale wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:28 am
PeterC86 wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:14 am

Yes that is why you have to let it go, you cannot make any absolute distinctions; the Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao. So their sameness is not a mystery, they are just two sides of the same coin; dependent origination; Nibbana.

I will stop here. Any more attempts to explain would only result in repeating myself. Either you get it or you don't. If you don't, you can make your pet Tao, because the text is elusive on purpose.
Unfortunately you seem to be presenting your own pet Tao here, based on little more than a sort of muddled perennialism.
Just because I see that two paths lead to the same summit, doesn't mean that all world religions are the same. Taoism and Buddhism clearly stand apart from any Theistic teaching. So you just make this perennialism your argument, to support your case/view/believe/pet to try and talk me down, which you need to support your own believe.

It makes perfect sense that Zen developed out of a synthesis between Taoism and Buddhism.

So you guys can make your own interpretations; the Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao.

Have fun!
Just repeating the slogan "the Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao" is no support whatsoever for your claim that the Tao and Nibbana are the same.
And of course Nibbana is clearly named and described in the suttas,

Taoism has a little in common with Zen, but appears to have very little in common with the early Buddhism of the suttas, which is what you're actually referring to here.
And Taoism is regarded by many as pantheistic, which would suggest that it actually has more in common with Hinduism than Buddhism.

I'm not trying to "talk you down", I am just disagreeing with you, and asking you to explain and support your opinions.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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