abhidhamma

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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retrofuturist
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Re: abhidhamma

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Craig,

The Abhidhamma is a full Pitaka, with several extensive volumes.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"Why now do you assume 'a being'? Mara, have you grasped a view?" (SN 5.10)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: abhidhamma

Post by Ceisiwr »

Oh lol :jumping:
“When serenity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Lust is abandoned.”

“When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Wisdom is developed. And when wisdom is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned."


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Eko Care
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Re: abhidhamma

Post by Eko Care »

Ben wrote: Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:38 am If the abhidhamma was found to be a work of fiction, it would have been discounted as such by many through out its history.
But they can’t explain when this plot happened; how did it occur?.Saying something is the Buddha’s teaching when it is not is a grave kamma; why wasn’t such a huge lie admonished by other monks. .
........
3) There would have had to be a lengthy plot involving hundreds of monks actively lying and claiming that it was the Buddha Dhamma when it wasn’t – and that is heavy kamma. I don’t get that feeling about the ancient monks and nuns of Theravada. ...

Abhidhamma -origins
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:25 pm Just recently, a thought occured to me that it is very fortunate for me to have some chances to get in touch with a little bit of Abhidhamma, making things really easy regarding interpretations of Dhamma readings. This thought formed after seeing the instances that even those very great minds of these (and recent) days who seemed not wanting to rely on abhidhamma usually ended up walking hazardously & laboriously on explanation about the attainments, on the verge of apparently contradicting the Buddha's teachings.

Abhidhamma makes things really easy regarding interpretations of Dhamma
Do you think you know better than the ancient Sangha ?
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Re: abhidhamma

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Ben wrote: Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:00 pm ...
How do I view it? Given my exposure is via Bhikkhu Bodhi's 'A comprehensive manual of the Abhidhamma', the writings of Ledi Sayadaw and a couple of chapters from Nina Van Gorkom, I view it very positively.

As for whether the Abhidhamma was composed by the Buddha or by Sariputta, I think is by and large irrelevant.
Metta

Ben

Pleasantly amazing, especially when expressed by the Ben of Goenkaji's, imo.
:bow: :bow: :bow:



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Re: abhidhamma

Post by DooDoot »

Eko Care wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:08 am
Ben wrote: Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:38 am If the abhidhamma was found to be a work of fiction, it would have been discounted as such by many through out its history.
Buddhism became extinct in India and nearly extinct in Sri Lanka. This fact shows how "discounted" Abhidhamma & the Commentaries were, whose teachings are held by scholars to have caused Buddhism to become indistinguishable from Hinduism. The fact that relatively very few people have read Abhidhamma, including relatively few Buddhist monks, shows how "discounted" Abhidhamma is. The very present fact the promoters of Abhidhamma on this forum do not reply to my questions about Abhidhamma's apparent departure from Sutta shows the "self-discounted" nature of Abhidhamma by its own idolic adherents who have probably not even read it.
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Re: abhidhamma

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings DooDoot,

What you say reminds me of what I once read in Nanavira's letters...
Quite in general, I find that the Buddhists of Ceylon are remarkably complacent at being the preservers and inheritors of the Buddha's Teaching, and remarkably ignorant of what the Buddha actually taught. Except by a few learned theras (who are dying out), the contents of the Suttas are practically unknown. This fact, combined with the great traditional reverence for the Dhamma as the National Heritage, has turned the Buddha's Teaching into an immensely valuable antique Object of Veneration, with a large placard in front, 'DO NOT TOUCH'. In other words, the Dhamma in Ceylon is now totally divorced from reality (if you want statistical evidence, tell me how many English-educated graduates of the University of Ceylon have thought it worthwhile to become bhikkhus). It is simply taken for granted (by bhikkhus and laymen alike) that there are not, and cannot possibly be, any sekha bhikkhus (or laymen) actually walking about in Ceylon today. People can no longer imagine what kind of a creature a sotapānna might conceivably be, and in consequence superstitiously credit him with every kind of perfection—but deny him the possibility of existence.
Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"Why now do you assume 'a being'? Mara, have you grasped a view?" (SN 5.10)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Re: abhidhamma

Post by Dan74 »

I met a fair few Sri Lankan Buddhists in Australia, never been to the country itselfm but was impressed by some of them, their sincerity, dedication and insight. But turning on Sri Lanka as somehow an inferior place for the Dhamma, what does this serve? What possible evidence can there be to justify this?

Like every other country it's composed mostly of sentient beings, with their encumbrances. It is clear that there are good temples and solid bhikkhus in Sri Lanka.

Ven. Nanavira criticised from within, from personal knowledge and I suspect, from a position of care and affection for the tradition in SL. We here, fail on probably all three counts, but certainly on the first.
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Re: abhidhamma

Post by DooDoot »

Dan74 wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:47 am What possible evidence can there be to justify this?
The evidence is on this forum, as follows:
DooDoot wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:04 am The very present fact the promoters of Abhidhamma on this forum do not reply to my questions about Abhidhamma's apparent departure from Sutta shows the "self-discounted" nature of Abhidhamma by its own idolic adherents who have probably not even read it.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: abhidhamma

Post by Eko Care »

Nanavira: ... if you want statistical evidence, tell me how many English-educated graduates of the University of Ceylon have thought it worthwhile to become bhikkhus.
"English-education and graduation in a Western education system
is inversely proportional to Saddha."
Some say.
Nanavira: ... People can no longer imagine what kind of a creature a sotapānna might conceivably be, ...
We have heard that a Puthujjana can't imagine it.

Is he criticizing people on not being Sotapannas?
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Re: abhidhamma

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Dan74,
Dan74 wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:47 am I met a fair few Sri Lankan Buddhists in Australia, never been to the country itselfm but was impressed by some of them, their sincerity, dedication and insight.
My most vivid memory is of a Bhikkhu watching Law And Order once the lay people had gone home.
Dan74 wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:47 amBut turning on Sri Lanka as somehow an inferior place for the Dhamma, what does this serve? What possible evidence can there be to justify this?
There is no "inferior place for the Dhamma", yet there is a tendency for nationalistic tendencies to cloud one's perception and application of it. In addition to what Nanavira Thera mentioned above it is well known that the Burmese Vipassana Tradition was started as a reaction against colonialism, much like the motivation that led zavk to his downfall.

The Buddha explains in the Suttas what the purpose of his teaching is. It is not for them to be placed upon a pedestal, enclosed behind glass and circumambulated thrice, keeping them to one's right. If people are instead motivated by extraneous factors, the results are often poor, ineffective and prone to falling apart, as DooDoot pointed out. Therein lies no refuge.
Dan74 wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:47 amLike every other country it's composed mostly of sentient beings, with their encumbrances. It is clear that there are good temples and solid bhikkhus in Sri Lanka.

Ven. Nanavira criticised from within, from personal knowledge and I suspect, from a position of care and affection for the tradition in SL. We here, fail on probably all three counts, but certainly on the first.
It sounds like you are now white-knighting for the nation of Sri Lanka.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"Why now do you assume 'a being'? Mara, have you grasped a view?" (SN 5.10)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Re: abhidhamma

Post by Coëmgenu »

retrofuturist wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:10 amWhat you say reminds me of what I once read in Nanavira's letters...
[...] It is simply taken for granted (by bhikkhus and laymen alike) that there are not, and cannot possibly be, any sekha bhikkhus (or laymen) actually walking about in Ceylon today. People can no longer imagine what kind of a creature a sotapānna might conceivably be [...]
Emphasis mine. How is he using "sekha" here? Is he using it to mean "Āryans in general?" I know "śaikṣa," the Sanskrit version, to just mean "a learner" as opposed to "a teacher." In guruyoga, you have a guru and a śaikṣa as a pair. Obviously that's a latter usage of "śaikṣa."
Seated in solitude, the body and the mind are made calm and pure.
Moved by serenity, they act for each others' salvation.
The nature of the mind, like this, is alien to all corruption
when the body, as it should, sits at peace.

(T848.46b23 Vairocana Sūtra)
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Re: abhidhamma

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:09 pm How is he using "sekha" here? Is he using it to mean "Āryans in general?"
Aside from an arahant who is beyond training, thus asekha.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"Why now do you assume 'a being'? Mara, have you grasped a view?" (SN 5.10)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Re: abhidhamma

Post by Coëmgenu »

Yeah, I noticed this definition from AccessToInsight:
A "learner" or "one in training"; a noble disciple (ariya puggala) who has not yet attained arahantship.
So a sekha in the Pali tradition is either always an ariyapuggala or can be one, but just means "learner" in the Northerly tradition AFAIK.
Seated in solitude, the body and the mind are made calm and pure.
Moved by serenity, they act for each others' salvation.
The nature of the mind, like this, is alien to all corruption
when the body, as it should, sits at peace.

(T848.46b23 Vairocana Sūtra)
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Re: abhidhamma

Post by sphairos »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:09 pm
retrofuturist wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:10 amWhat you say reminds me of what I once read in Nanavira's letters...
[...] It is simply taken for granted (by bhikkhus and laymen alike) that there are not, and cannot possibly be, any sekha bhikkhus (or laymen) actually walking about in Ceylon today. People can no longer imagine what kind of a creature a sotapānna might conceivably be [...]
Emphasis mine. How is he using "sekha" here? Is he using it to mean "Āryans in general?" I know "śaikṣa," the Sanskrit version, to just mean "a learner" as opposed to "a teacher." In guruyoga, you have a guru and a śaikṣa as a pair. Obviously that's a latter usage of "śaikṣa."
No, śaikṣa is at least a srota-āpanna, see ABK and Śrāvakabhūmi, for instance.
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Re: abhidhamma

Post by Coëmgenu »

sphairos wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:23 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:09 pm
retrofuturist wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:10 amWhat you say reminds me of what I once read in Nanavira's letters...
Emphasis mine. How is he using "sekha" here? Is he using it to mean "Āryans in general?" I know "śaikṣa," the Sanskrit version, to just mean "a learner" as opposed to "a teacher." In guruyoga, you have a guru and a śaikṣa as a pair. Obviously that's a latter usage of "śaikṣa."
No, śaikṣa is at least a srota-āpanna, see ABK and Śrāvakabhūmi, for instance.
Where would I head in ABK to find this? I am familiar with this usage of śaikṣa from on-the-ground Buddhists. It would be interesting if it is a "technically incorrect" but "widespread" usage. The only Buddhists I've ever heard describing themselves as śaikṣas are Tantrikas in Guru-śaikṣa relationships. Zen students use the word "śaikṣa" as well but in Sino-Japanese translation. The śaikṣa is opposite the guru in this "non-ariya" usage which is either correct or incorrect depending on your context.
Seated in solitude, the body and the mind are made calm and pure.
Moved by serenity, they act for each others' salvation.
The nature of the mind, like this, is alien to all corruption
when the body, as it should, sits at peace.

(T848.46b23 Vairocana Sūtra)
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