Nāgārjuna

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Post Reply
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: Nāgārjuna

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:44 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:43 pm inherant existance in some things
nibbana has inherent existence which is why it is 100% reliable and permanent peace

:anjali: :buddha1:
What are the properties? if it has inherent existance, how is it safe refuge as jumping from samsara to nibbana wont be possible if nibbana has inherant existance..

because inherant existance cant depend on anything, then crossing over is failed. Nagarjuna will save u from this wrong view of yours. I highly recommend for your good out of compassion. as for me, I am saved from this misunderstanding I had which prevented me from exp noble bliss when ever I want...
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Nāgārjuna

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:48 pm What are the properties?
“Bhikkhus, I will teach you the taintless and the path leading to the taintless. Listen to that….

“Bhikkhus, I will teach you the truth and the path leading to the truth…. I will teach you the far shore … the subtle … the very difficult to see … the unaging … … the stable … the undisintegrating … the unmanifest … the unproliferated … the peaceful … the deathless … the sublime … the auspicious … … the secure …. the destruction of craving … the wonderful … the amazing … the unailing … the unailing state … Nibbāna … the unafflicted … dispassion … … purity … freedom … the unadhesive … the island … the shelter … the asylum … the refuge … …”

:buddha1:
confusedlayman wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:48 pm Nagarjuna will save u from this wrong view of yours. I highly recommend for your good out of compassion.
ur name is confusedlayman :woohoo: :jumping: :soap: :zzz: :hello:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: Nāgārjuna

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:54 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:48 pm What are the properties?
“Bhikkhus, I will teach you the taintless and the path leading to the taintless. Listen to that….

“Bhikkhus, I will teach you the truth and the path leading to the truth…. I will teach you the far shore … the subtle … the very difficult to see … the unaging … … the stable … the undisintegrating … the unmanifest … the unproliferated … the peaceful … the deathless … the sublime … the auspicious … … the secure …. the destruction of craving … the wonderful … the amazing … the unailing … the unailing state … Nibbāna … the unafflicted … dispassion … … purity … freedom … the unadhesive … the island … the shelter … the asylum … the refuge … …”

:buddha1:
confusedlayman wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:48 pm Nagarjuna will save u from this wrong view of yours. I highly recommend for your good out of compassion.
ur name is confusedlayman :woohoo: :jumping: :soap: :zzz: :hello:
Unmanifest? have u seen the word my friend DooDoot? :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :quote:
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8150
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Nāgārjuna

Post by Coëmgenu »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:28 pm"Passion is a making of themes. Aversion is a making of themes. Delusion is a making of themes. In a monk whose fermentations are ended, these have been abandoned, their root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Now, to the extent that there is theme-less awareness-release, the unprovoked awareness-release is declared the foremost. And this unprovoked awareness-release is empty of passion, empty of aversion, empty of delusion.

does this has any relavence to madhamaka teaching?
This sutta, the Godattasutta (SN 41.7), is describing different modes of release. Citta Gahapati says to Āyasma Godatta, "Venerable sir, there is a line of reasoning by which these phenomena are different in meaning and different in name, and there is a line of reasoning by which they are one in meaning and different only in name," and that's the closest you get to anything distinctly Madhyamaka and not distinctly any other kind of Buddhist, and it is a contrived relation, because we're not really talking about dharmas from the perspective of the highest truth versus the relative. Instead, we're talking about four particular dharmas, "appamāṇā cetovimutti" (in that translation immeasurable awareness-release), "ākiñcaññā cetovimutti" (nothingness awareness-release), "suññatā cetovimutti" (emptiness awareness-release) and "animittā cetovimutti" (themeless awareness-release). It's talking about ways that these can be considered the same and ways that they can not be considered the same. It's not about "all phenomena" or even "phenomena in general."

It's actually rather interesting, if only because I don't read that many Pāli suttas. There are four "akuppā cetovimutti" (unshakeable, inviolable release of the heart, "unprovoked" here) versions of the 4 releases. The emptiness release is not the perspective from which "these phenomena are one in meaning and different only in name," but rather it is the "unshakeable" variations of the four. Interesting. The "unshakeable" emptiness-release is a way these four can be thought of as one, but it is unspecial, because it shares this with all of the unshakeable of the four, namely the nothingness, the immeasurable, the signless...


It's up to practitioners to realize these "vimuttis."
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: Nāgārjuna

Post by confusedlayman »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:54 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:28 pm"Passion is a making of themes. Aversion is a making of themes. Delusion is a making of themes. In a monk whose fermentations are ended, these have been abandoned, their root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Now, to the extent that there is theme-less awareness-release, the unprovoked awareness-release is declared the foremost. And this unprovoked awareness-release is empty of passion, empty of aversion, empty of delusion.

does this has any relavence to madhamaka teaching?
This sutta, the Godattasutta (SN 41.7), is describing different modes of release. Citta Gahapati says to Āyasma Godatta, "Venerable sir, there is a line of reasoning by which these phenomena are different in meaning and different in name, and there is a line of reasoning by which they are one in meaning and different only in name," and that's the closest you get to anything distinctly Madhyamaka and not distinctly any other kind of Buddhist, and it is a contrived relation, because we're not really talking about dharmas from the perspective of the highest truth versus the relative. Instead, we're talking about four particular dharmas, "appamāṇā cetovimutti" (in that translation immeasurable awareness-release), "ākiñcaññā cetovimutti" (nothingness awareness-release), "suññatā cetovimutti" (emptiness awareness-release) and "animittā cetovimutti" (themeless awareness-release). It's talking about ways that these can be considered the same and ways that they can not be considered the same. It's not about "all phenomena" or even "phenomena in general."

It's actually rather interesting, if only because I don't read that many Pāli suttas. There are four "akuppā cetovimutti" (unshakeable, inviolable release of the heart, "unprovoked" here) versions of the 4 releases. The emptiness release is not the perspective from which "these phenomena are one in meaning and different only in name," but rather it is the "unshakeable" variations of the four. Interesting. The "unshakeable" emptiness-release is a way these four can be thought of as one, but it is unspecial, because it shares this with all of the unshakeable of the four, namely the nothingness, the immeasurable, the signless...


It's up to practitioners to realize these "vimuttis."
themeless awareness has perception or not? neither perception, nor non perception is themeless or neither themeless nor themeful?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8150
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Nāgārjuna

Post by Coëmgenu »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:23 pmthemeless awareness has perception or not? neither perception, nor non perception is themeless or neither themeless nor themeful?
I guess the answers to these questions are to be found in obtaining inviolable release, if they aren't found in that sūtra. When I called "unshakeable emptiness-release" unspecial, it wasn't because it is not a profound realization. When I first encounter literature, I like to just read it at a surface-level at first, just looking at it from a logical terminological perspective, a perspective of X then Y, then trying to understand the meaning of those terms, then after that evaluating the claims. In the "surface-level" pass at that sūtra, I was looking for "emptiness" being literally held above other terms, a very superficial reading, looking for things "stereotypically Madhyamaka." If there is any Madhyamaka to be found, it is likely in understanding what this "unshakeable" is, and why from it, "there is a line of reasoning by which they [these four releases] are one in meaning and different only in name" (SN 41.7).
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: Nāgārjuna

Post by confusedlayman »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:27 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:23 pmthemeless awareness has perception or not? neither perception, nor non perception is themeless or neither themeless nor themeful?
I guess the answers to these questions are to be found in obtaining inviolable release, if they aren't found in that sūtra.
in sutta the instriction is bare
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8150
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Nāgārjuna

Post by Coëmgenu »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:30 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:27 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:23 pmthemeless awareness has perception or not? neither perception, nor non perception is themeless or neither themeless nor themeful?
I guess the answers to these questions are to be found in obtaining inviolable release, if they aren't found in that sūtra.
in sutta the instriction is bare
That is why it is important to have a very thorough background in suttas when reading suttas. They build upon each other, each of these small scriptures, and create a tapestry of intertextual meaning. Just reading any one sutta is unlikely to produce much, unless it is a particularly grand one. This "unshakeable" (akuppā) is likely elaborated in other suttas, and in those we can find why the four can be one or different depending on this. Where I more exposed to them, I would know this. It is likely an easy citation, I assume.

Just from entering "akuppā" into the SuttaCentral search, we find:
akuppā me vimutti, ayamantimā jāti, natthi dāni punabbhavo
My freedom is unshakable; this is my last rebirth; now there are no more future lives.
(SN 48.21 Punabbhavasutta)

It is possible that this term is particularly associated with Arhatva/Arhatship, versus other significant attainments. I wouldn't say for sure, not having looked into it past this at the present.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
krish5
Posts: 119
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:26 am

Re: Nāgārjuna

Post by krish5 »

There is nothing wrong with a interest in Nagarjuna, i had one too recently. But after investigating a little, i saw for myself that it is a waste of my time and effort and energy. It is just a distraction, it wont lead anywhere.

Nagarjuna, is important to Tibetan Buddhists and some Zen schools i believe. Theravada has no connection with Nagarjuna as far as i know or very little.

To really study and understand what Nagarjuna was presenting, you are going to have to devote a lot of time and study and possibly learn Sanskrit, etc. You probably are going to have to find a Madhyamika school, if you really want to get Nagarjuna. My advice is stick with traditional Theravada time proven teachings and devote yourself there.

From David Loy" Unfortunately for the general reader, Nagarjuna’s Sanskrit, although not lacking in grace or precision, is impersonal and dense. The Karikas were meant to be memorized rather than read, and they would normally have been supplemented by the oral commentary of a teacher. But even then, Nagarjuna’s philosophy is notoriously difficult to understand (which might help explain why he is more revered than studied)."

http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/Nag ... a_Loy.html
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: Nāgārjuna

Post by confusedlayman »

krish5 wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:51 pm There is nothing wrong with a interest in Nagarjuna, i had one too recently. But after investigating a little, i saw for myself that it is a waste of my time and effort and energy. It is just a distraction, it wont lead anywhere.

Nagarjuna, is important to Tibetan Buddhists and some Zen schools i believe. Theravada has no connection with Nagarjuna as far as i know or very little.

To really study and understand what Nagarjuna was presenting, you are going to have to devote a lot of time and study and possibly learn Sanskrit, etc. You probably are going to have to find a Madhyamika school, if you really want to get Nagarjuna. My advice is stick with traditional Theravada time proven teachings and devote yourself there.

From David Loy" Unfortunately for the general reader, Nagarjuna’s Sanskrit, although not lacking in grace or precision, is impersonal and dense. The Karikas were meant to be memorized rather than read, and they would normally have been supplemented by the oral commentary of a teacher. But even then, Nagarjuna’s philosophy is notoriously difficult to understand (which might help explain why he is more revered than studied)."

http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/Nag ... a_Loy.html
I recommend you to read. its not diffucult to understand.. it took me 30min to understand the basics but when u want to apply it might take more than that ... I think Madhamaka teaching is very rare. Understanding conveptually wont be a problem but applying in life is where it gets tricky
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
Caodemarte
Posts: 1092
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 3:21 pm

Re: Nāgārjuna

Post by Caodemarte »

There is no Madhyamaka sect. The ideas articulated by Nagrajuna or the Perfection of Wisdom literature are basic to all sects or forms of existing mainstream Mahayana. They would argue that these ideas are inherent in basic Buddhism and so basic to all Buddhism. They do not conflict with Theravada according to many Theravadins who believe that such works help one understand Buddhism and therefore the Theravada sect. You do not have to read Sanskrit, any more than you have to read German to understand Hegel, although it would be nice. Like almost all Buddhist scholastic philosophical works in Sanskrit Nagarjuna's philosophical works are meant to be supplemented by a commentary to flesh out the details. Many exist. Such texts themselves are usually the equivalent of lecture notes or a summary of the main points.

krish5 wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:51 pm There is nothing wrong with a interest in Nagarjuna, i had one too recently. But after investigating a little, i saw for myself that it is a waste of my time and effort and energy. It is just a distraction, it wont lead anywhere.

Nagarjuna, is important to Tibetan Buddhists and some Zen schools i believe. Theravada has no connection with Nagarjuna as far as i know or very little.

To really study and understand what Nagarjuna was presenting, you are going to have to devote a lot of time and study and possibly learn Sanskrit, etc. You probably are going to have to find a Madhyamika school, if you really want to get Nagarjuna. My advice is stick with traditional Theravada time proven teachings and devote yourself there.

From David Loy" Unfortunately for the general reader, Nagarjuna’s Sanskrit, although not lacking in grace or precision, is impersonal and dense. The Karikas were meant to be memorized rather than read, and they would normally have been supplemented by the oral commentary of a teacher. But even then, Nagarjuna’s philosophy is notoriously difficult to understand (which might help explain why he is more revered than studied)."

http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/Nag ... a_Loy.html
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8150
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Nāgārjuna

Post by Coëmgenu »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:34 pmit took me 30min to understand the basics but when u want to apply it might take more than that ... I think Madhamaka teaching is very rare. Understanding conveptually wont be a problem but applying in life is where it gets tricky
Beware of Dunning and his wicked friend Kruger. By the self-narrative of larger schools attached to Madhyamaka, these teachings are stream-entry, or the first bodhisattva bhūmi, and beyond. By the self-narrative of the MMK itself, its purpose might be worded more humbly: "With no arising and no ceasing, no permanence and no severance, no identity and no difference, no arriving and no departing, to the one who can expound this matter of causality and completely destroy all sophistries, I bow my head in reverence, to the Buddha, the greatest of all teachers." (MMK opening verses, translated Christopher Bocking)

The above is a translation from the Chinese. This "matter of causality" is pratītyasamutpādaṁ in the Sanskrit, making the connection clearer.

Then again, I believe the Theravāda traditional also associates profound insight into dependent origination specifically with stream-entry.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: Nāgārjuna

Post by confusedlayman »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:41 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:34 pmit took me 30min to understand the basics but when u want to apply it might take more than that ... I think Madhamaka teaching is very rare. Understanding conveptually wont be a problem but applying in life is where it gets tricky
Beware of Dunning and his wicked friend Kruger. By the self-narrative of larger schools attached to Madhyamaka, these teachings are stream-entry, or the first bodhisattva bhūmi, and beyond. By the self-narrative of the MMK itself, its purpose might be worded more humbly: "With no arising and no ceasing, no permanence and no severance, no identity and no difference, no arriving and no departing, to the one who can expound this matter of causality and completely destroy all sophistries, I bow my head in reverence, to the Buddha, the greatest of all teachers." (MMK opening verses, translated Christopher Bocking)

Then again, I believe the Theravāda traditional also associates profound insight into dependent origination specifically with stream-entry.
r u telling only stream entry can apply his teaching in real life. others can only read it but cant apply it?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8150
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Nāgārjuna

Post by Coëmgenu »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:45 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:41 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:34 pmit took me 30min to understand the basics but when u want to apply it might take more than that ... I think Madhamaka teaching is very rare. Understanding conveptually wont be a problem but applying in life is where it gets tricky
Beware of Dunning and his wicked friend Kruger. By the self-narrative of larger schools attached to Madhyamaka, these teachings are stream-entry, or the first bodhisattva bhūmi, and beyond. By the self-narrative of the MMK itself, its purpose might be worded more humbly: "With no arising and no ceasing, no permanence and no severance, no identity and no difference, no arriving and no departing, to the one who can expound this matter of causality and completely destroy all sophistries, I bow my head in reverence, to the Buddha, the greatest of all teachers." (MMK opening verses, translated Christopher Bocking)

Then again, I believe the Theravāda traditional also associates profound insight into dependent origination specifically with stream-entry.
r u telling only stream entry can apply his teaching in real life. others can only read it but cant apply it?
Sorry, I misread what you said initially. Hopefully you haven't replied by the time I fix this. No, I am not saying that.

I'm saying that the realization of what is described in these texts is equated by many with stream-entry and the first bhūmi and with further beyond that. It is not that you need to be a bhūmika/stream-entrant to penetrate into these. Then, no one could become a stream-entrant or a bhūmika, because you would already need to be one to become one. Does that make sense?

Like I said before, we need to beware of Dunning and his wicked friend Kruger. If we're willing to say we have penetrated into this in a truly deep way, we also have to be willing to make a lion's roar, so-to-speak. Madhyamaka is not about reading texts, as important as learning is. This wisdom has to be accompanied by threefold training, prajñā-śīla-samādhi, or it is just textbooks and proliferation. Truly experiencing the perspective outlined in these texts is a very rare state of yogic equipoise. If we are willing to say we "absolutely understand" Venerable Nāgārjuna, and by that I mean that we are willing to say that we "experience" his perspective as he outlined, we are saying we can inhabit his mind post-mortem, so-to-speak, and understanding "the other mind" is a ṛddhi of the Buddhas. We need to understand what we are claiming, even though we might be high on a conceptual grasp of a complicated matter. Are we willing to claim bhūmika as a name for ourselves? Śrotapanna? These are not levels you can level-up to in a video game, so-to-speak, and indeed no one is suggesting that. It's just a rhetorical turn of phrase.

Also, being "high on a conceptual grasp of a complicated matter" is hardly the worst thing. There are worst things we could be high on. But this can't become a locus of obsession. I am sure that our SteRo would agree with us here.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:19 pm, edited 3 times in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
krish5
Posts: 119
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:26 am

Re: Nāgārjuna

Post by krish5 »

I admit i know nothing, only can share what i have gone into so far myself. Thank you for sharing your perspectives, i will stay open. I too had a interest in Nagarjuna, as i said, and i even have one book about his teachings, by Stephen Batchelor, called "Verses from the Center" and i have read it and re-read it a few times, and i looked online too, read a few articles, and i still have no clue what Nagarjuna is talking about. But it might be because i am a little slow and not as quick to grasp as some of you. If you understand his teachings, pointers, that is wonderful.

Here is one more article i read that i think is good, relating to Nagarjuna and Zen, enjoy:

http://www.thezensite.com/zenwritings/z ... arjuna.pdf

From the article : To see the Mulamadhyamakakarika as a philosophical work would be, in my
opinion, to misunderstand Nagarjuna’s purpose in writing it. All texts
should be approached not only on the basis of what it is that they are conveying,
but also, and perhaps more importantly, why they were created in the first place.
Nagarjuna created his writings out of great compassion to liberate all beings
from ignorance and hence suffering. He certainly was not trying to create a new
philosophical view. Quite the contrary, he explicitly denied sunyata as a
philosophy:

The emptiness of the conquerors was taught in order to do away with
all philosophical views. Therefore it is said that whoever makes a
philosophical view out of “emptiness” is indeed lost. (quoted in
Huntington, 1989:3)
Post Reply