Arahant's suicide

[Dhammanando]

The disintegration of the khandhas is the cessation of suffering.

Sorry but the above is wrong. Why bother continuing to post what is false to educated Buddhists?

https://suttacentral.net/sn36.6/en/bodhi

"Bhikkhus, when the instructed noble disciple is contacted by a painful feeling, he does not sorrow, grieve, or lament; he does not weep beating his breast and become distraught. He feels one feeling—a bodily one, not a mental one. Suppose they were to strike a man with a dart, but they would not strike him immediately afterwards with a second dart, so that the man would feel a feeling caused by one dart only. So too, when the instructed noble disciple is contacted by a painful feeling … he feels one feeling—a bodily one, not a mental one."

But your quotation from the Salla Sutta doesn't say anything about the khandhas disintegrating. Nor does the definition of cessation in the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta:

• "And this, monks, is the noble truth of the cessation of dukkha: the remainderless fading and cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, and letting go of that very craving."

[Germann]

Sorry but the above is wrong. Why bother continuing to post what is false to educated Buddhists?

https://suttacentral.net/sn36.6/en/bodhi

"Bhikkhus, when the instructed noble disciple is contacted by a painful feeling, he does not sorrow, grieve, or lament; he does not weep beating his breast and become distraught. He feels one feeling—a bodily one, not a mental one. Suppose they were to strike a man with a dart, but they would not strike him immediately afterwards with a second dart, so that the man would feel a feeling caused by one dart only. So too, when the instructed noble disciple is contacted by a painful feeling … he feels one feeling—a bodily one, not a mental one."

But your quotation from the Salla Sutta doesn't say anything about the khandhas disintegrating. Nor does the definition of cessation in the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta:

• "And this, monks, is the noble truth of the cessation of dukkha: the remainderless fading and cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, and letting go of that very craving."

The disintegration of the khandh stops all kinds of dukkha. So why then is the old, decrepit, weak Arahant not commit suicide, which then will lead to the collapse of the khandas?

Since Arahant, without feeling thirst, continues to drink and eat, accept offerings, the absence of thirst is not an explanation for the absence of an active act. Bringing food to your mouth is also an active deed, not just "making a knife."

[Germann]

Why Buddha meditating, when all is reached? To ease dukkha old age, decrepitude, physical discomfort.

Why do accomplished maestros continue to play their musical instruments, or martial arts masters continue to execute their daily drills day in day out? Easing physical pains is only one among the countless benefits of meditation. It's false logic to assume the Buddha did meditation to solely exclusively manage pains and then base on that wrong assumption to conclude that He was subjected to suffering. By the way, the following comes from that exact same sutta that you've just quoted:

If he feels a pleasant feeling, he feels it detached. If he feels a painful feeling, he feels it detached. If he feels a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, he feels it detached. This, bhikkhus, is called a noble disciple who is detached from birth, aging, and death; who is detached from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair; who is detached from suffering, I say.

A professional has a thirst, he is attached to his favorite activity, and Arahant has neither thirst nor clinging. Why, then, does Buddha meditate when he has already achieved everything? The Pali Buddha at Mahaparinibbana Sutta says that meditation makes life more comfortable for an old man whose body is decrepit.

"Now I am frail, Ananda, old, aged, far gone in years. This is my eightieth year, and my life is spent. Even as an old cart, Ananda, is held together with much difficulty, so the body of the Tathagata is kept going only with supports. It is, Ananda, only when the Tathagata, disregarding external objects, with the cessation of certain feelings, attains to and abides in the signless concentration of mind, that his body is more comfortable."

[Dhammanando]

The disintegration of the khandh stops all kinds of dukkha. So why then is the old, decrepit, weak Arahant not commit suicide, which then will lead to the collapse of the khandas?

In the definition of cessation that I quoted from the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta, the phrase "that very craving" includes vibhava-taṇhā. With vibhava-taṇhā absent there is nothing in the arahant's makeup that could serve to instigate suicide. Hence the much-iterated Theragāthā phrase:

N'ābhinandāmi maraṇaṃ, n'ābhinandāmi jīvitaṃ,
Kālañca paṭikaṅkhāmi, nibbisaṃ bhatako yathā.

"I delight not in death; I delight not in life;
But await my time, as a hireling his wages."
— Thag. 606 et al.

[santa100]

A professional has a thirst, he is attached to his favorite activity, and Arahant has neither thirst nor clinging. Why, then, does Buddha meditate when he has already achieved everything? The Pali Buddha at Mahaparinibbana Sutta says that meditation makes life more comfortable for an old man whose body is decrepit.

You obviously haven't trained in a martial art under a great martial art master. True martial art masters aren't too far away from the Path. Once they've reached such level, it wouldn't make any sense to assume they still do those drills day in and day out simply out of "thirst". Once they've reached such level, they have become the art, and the art has become them. They do it because it's second nature and it is a way of life. Similarly, the Buddha still meditated because that's His way of life. By the way, I certainly do not blame you for asking the question above. Afterall, neither you nor me have attained mastery in any disciplines, worldly or un-worldly, and hence never been in those masters' shoes to truly understand their mind state and what guide them to do what they do. And it's exactly for that reason that one will not come across as being wise by hastily claiming that the masters do it out of "thirst", or the Buddha meditated just solely and exclusively to eliminate pain.

[bridif1]

Why, then, does Buddha meditate when he has already achieved everything? The Pali Buddha at Mahaparinibbana Sutta says that meditation makes life more comfortable for an old man whose body is decrepit.

Hi Germann!

I asked a similar question on Buddhism.SE. Here's the link to that question with an answer that dissipated my doubts in that moment:

Is Jhana considered dukkha and/or conditioned?

Kind regards!

[sunnat]

"... but rather will experience a step by step reduction and removal of coarse Dukkha, with more and more subtle Dukkha becoming noticeable as the practice develops."

IMO is more correct if stated thus :

"... but rather will experience a step by step reduction and removal of Dukkha, with deeper, veiled in ignorance, Dukkha becoming noticeable as wisdom, insight, develops and ignorance is abandoned."

[chownah]

The disintegration of the khandh stops all kinds of dukkha. So why then is the old, decrepit, weak Arahant not commit suicide, which then will lead to the collapse of the khandas?

The old decrepit weak arahant does not suffer from dukkha....why (as you suggest) commit suicide to collapse the khandas and stop all kinds of dukkha (if committing suicide would actually accomplish this which is your idea and I am not endorsing your idea but just trying to point out that even if it is correct why would the arahant do it since the arahant is not suffering as life continues).
chownah

[Germann]

The disintegration of the khandh stops all kinds of dukkha. So why then is the old, decrepit, weak Arahant not commit suicide, which then will lead to the collapse of the khandas?

In the definition of cessation that I quoted from the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta, the phrase "that very craving" includes vibhava-taṇhā. With vibhava-taṇhā absent there is nothing in the arahant's makeup that could serve to instigate suicide. Hence the much-iterated Theragāthā phrase:

N'ābhinandāmi maraṇaṃ, n'ābhinandāmi jīvitaṃ,
Kālañca paṭikaṅkhāmi, nibbisaṃ bhatako yathā.

"I delight not in death; I delight not in life;
But await my time, as a hireling his wages."
— Thag. 606 et al.

Are you claiming that khandhas is not dukkha?

[Germann]

The disintegration of the khandh stops all kinds of dukkha. So why then is the old, decrepit, weak Arahant not commit suicide, which then will lead to the collapse of the khandas?

The old decrepit weak arahant does not suffer from dukkha....why (as you suggest) commit suicide to collapse the khandas and stop all kinds of dukkha (if committing suicide would actually accomplish this which is your idea and I am not endorsing your idea but just trying to point out that even if it is correct why would the arahant do it since the arahant is not suffering as life continues).
chownah

Are you claiming that khandhas is not dukkha?

[Germann]

Why, then, does Buddha meditate when he has already achieved everything? The Pali Buddha at Mahaparinibbana Sutta says that meditation makes life more comfortable for an old man whose body is decrepit.

Hi Germann!

I asked a similar question on Buddhism.SE. Here's the link to that question with an answer that dissipated my doubts in that moment:

Is Jhana considered dukkha and/or conditioned?

Kind regards!

Good evening!

They also talk about the obvious:

"The word "dukkha" has three meanings in context:
Unpleasant/painful feelings (dukkha vedana), which Arahants have."

There is a way to imagine Nirodha samapatti as a condition that does not fall under dukkha, but this does not cancel the presence of dukkha in the life of Arahant. The fact that Arakhant did not commit such an active act as suicide cannot be explained by the absence of thirst and disgust - since without a thirst and disgust, Arakhant performs such an active act as bringing food to his mouth, chewing, and swallowing. Suicide would save Arahant from any meeting with dukkha, from dukkha of old age, pain, etc.

Kind regards!

[cappuccino]

Human life is so brief, one can simply wait for death

Perhaps if thousands of years, one might be impatient

Then again, thousands of years are brief, as well

[Germann]

Kālat­ta­ya­duk­kha­sutta
https://legacy.suttacentral.net/pi/sn22.10
https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/sn22.10

Khandhi is dukkha in the past, present and future (in the three tenses). There is a special Sutta about this.

So why did Arahant not commit suicide to get rid of dukkha? Lack of thirst, clinging or lack of aversion do not explain the absence of an active act. Arahant has no thirst, no clinging, no disgust, but Arahant brings food to his mouth and swallows water - which is also active.

[Dhammanando]

Are you claiming that khandhas is not dukkha?

I'm saying that your definition of nirodha as "disintegration of the khandhas" is at odds with how it is defined in the Buddha's first sermon and, moreover, is unsupported anywhere else in the suttas. In this — as in so many other things — your error seems to arise from an inability to step outside the box of mediaeval Gelukpa scholasticism.

[Antaradhana]

Germann, why are you not satisfied with the explanation that Arahant does not have a thirst for nonexistence, and that kaya-dukkha-vedana he imperturbably feels, out of compassion for others, to teach them the Dhamma?