Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
binocular
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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by binocular »

Pascal2 wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 12:32 amNot if you are an arhant
In this case, placing a hand on a hot stove will make no difference
If it makes no difference, then why do it?
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Pascal2
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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by Pascal2 »

binocular wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:25 am
Pascal2 wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 12:32 amNot if you are an arhant
In this case, placing a hand on a hot stove will make no difference
If it makes no difference, then why do it?
To show to the millions that they have reached the end of suffering.
A more direct and compelling evidence that they have reached that goal.

Now, let me ask you one question.
Assuming a monk believes he has reached the end of suffering and does not test this himself, but (as an example) putting his hand on fire how would he possibly know for sure that his belief was and is not just an illusion?
Putting our own opinions before facts is the root of all fanaticism?
binocular
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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by binocular »

Pascal2 wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:57 amI really cant understand why would I be putting "the cart before the horse".
Like I've been telling you: One needs to educate oneself first in a particular field of knowledge, before one can understand proofs and see evidence in said field.
Please take note that I am not the one who makes the claim.
Other people, not me, made the claim that arahants do not suffer.
I merely ask them to prove their claim.
Why would I need to read texts or study them in order to ask such a simple question?
Claim (made by others): arahants have reached the end of suffering
My point: Well, prove it (by putting a hand on a stove, or other way you prefer).
It is so simple.
Here's an exchange I had with a Buddhist a while back:
binocular: If they're all so advanced and have it all figured out, then it shouldn't be hard for them to clarify things for me the way the Buddha did for Saccaka.
Buddhist: Seems to me you are trying to start a fire with a wet log.

https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t ... 20#p383577
Buddhists do not consider it their job to run the extra mile with you or for you.

If you don't find them trustworthy, that is your problem, not theirs.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
binocular
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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by binocular »

Pascal2 wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:28 amTo show to the millions that they have reached the end of suffering.
And if they don't care about showing others that they have reached the end of suffering?
A more direct and compelling evidence that they have reached that goal.
But that is your problem, not theirs. Sorry.
Assuming a monk believes he has reached the end of suffering and does not test this himself, but (as an example) putting his hand on fire how would he possibly know for sure that his belief was and is not just an illusion?
As far as I know, according to the teachings, it's in the nature of actually having spiritual attainment that one knows it as such; once one has the attainment, one knows that it is not an illusion.
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Pascal2
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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by Pascal2 »

binocular wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:32 am
Pascal2 wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:57 amI really cant understand why would I be putting "the cart before the horse".
Like I've been telling you: One needs to educate oneself first in a particular field of knowledge, before one can understand proofs and see evidence in said field.
You dont need to be an aerospace engineer to know that a plane is flying
You dont need to be an electronic engineer to see that a TV is working
Why would you need to be educated in Buddhism to see if an Arahant has reached the end of suffering?
As I said, even a child can see if a man puts a hand on a stove and he is suffering or not
binocular wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:32 am
Please take note that I am not the one who makes the claim.
Other people, not me, made the claim that arahants do not suffer.
I merely ask them to prove their claim.
Why would I need to read texts or study them in order to ask such a simple question?
Claim (made by others): arahants have reached the end of suffering
My point: Well, prove it (by putting a hand on a stove, or other way you prefer).
It is so simple.
Here's an exchange I had with a Buddhist a while back:
binocular: If they're all so advanced and have it all figured out, then it shouldn't be hard for them to clarify things for me the way the Buddha did for Saccaka.
Buddhist: Seems to me you are trying to start a fire with a wet log.

https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t ... 20#p383577
Buddhists do not consider it their job to run the extra mile with you or for you.

If you don't find them trustworthy, that is your problem, not theirs.
Well, this is partly true but why would then they preach to people for decades in order to compel them to start to practice when you could achieve that result in a couple of minutes in front of a camera
And would not it be very much uncompassionate NOT to share evidence of what you have achieved with others with no valid reason to do so?
Putting our own opinions before facts is the root of all fanaticism?
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by Coëmgenu »

Pascal2 wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:57 am You seem to have become a little bit irritated here, I am sorry if my points may have been the cause of this irritation
How Buddhists generally throw shade on the Internet:

"Oh, you seem upset. I wouldn't know what that's like. I'm never upset. I'm a BUDDHIST."

Not saying that's you, but that's how the Buddhists do, occasionally #metoo.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
The thus come thus gone,
who has neither came nor went,
enthroned on men’s breath,

like the still turtle,
withdraws six appendages
and is clothed in light --

illuminating
the unilluminated
with three shining cures.
binocular
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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by binocular »

Pascal2 wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:57 amI believe that understanding the meaning of the sentence "reaching the end of suffering" does not require any knowledge of the four noble truths.
Anyone with a basic knowledge of English language will be able to understand the meaning of this
Not at all.
"Suffering" is a term that in Buddhism has a specific meaning. And this meaning is not the same as in popular secular discourse, or as in other religions.
For example, there are things that are considered suffering in Buddhism, but which are not considered suffering in other religions or in popular culture.


How could you, as an external observer, tell whether the person who put their hand in the fire is suffering or not?
On the other side, the end of suffering is a quite here-and-there claim that can be tested quite easily
For that, we'd first need to agree upon the definition of "suffering" and how an external observer can correctly assess whether another person is suffering or not.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by Coëmgenu »

Instant Arhatva!



No pain = spiritual gains.
The thus come thus gone,
who has neither came nor went,
enthroned on men’s breath,

like the still turtle,
withdraws six appendages
and is clothed in light --

illuminating
the unilluminated
with three shining cures.
binocular
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Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by binocular »

Pascal2 wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:45 amWhy would you need to be educated in Buddhism to see if an Arahant has reached the end of suffering?
To begin with, in order to understand what an arahant is, you need to be educated in Buddhism.
And being properly educated in Buddhism you know that it takes an arahant to know an arahant.
Well, this is partly true but why would then they preach to people for decades in order to compel them to start to practice
On principle, Buddhism is not a religion of preachers, there is no compulsion intended.

If one comes from an Abrahamic background, one will probably experience any and all religious/spiritual preaching/teaching as being done with the intention to compel others.
However, it is not the case that all religious/spiritual preaching/teaching is being done with the intention to compel others.
And would not it be very much uncompassionate NOT to share evidence of what you have achieved with others with no valid reason to do so?
Not if it is in the nature of realizing the end of suffering that the end of suffering is something that one must do by oneself.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
binocular
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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by binocular »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:48 amWhen Shabbetai Ẓevi met Sultan Mehmed IV, Mehmed suggested that arrows be rained on Shabbetai Ẓevi. If he survived, he was truly the Masîḥ.

Sultan Mehmed IV wasn't very learned necessarily, despite being a fancy-fancy. His own Masîḥ, Christ, had died by Roman soldiers. Where did he get the idea that Shabbetai Ẓevi would be arrow-proof, invulnerable to Ottoman soldiers? Where do we get the idea that Arhats have no physical pain?
Probably from the concept of trial by ordeal, in which innocence is proven when the accused survives the ordeal.

Already mentioned earlier here in this thread.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by Coëmgenu »

binocular wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:07 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:48 amWhen Shabbetai Ẓevi met Sultan Mehmed IV, Mehmed suggested that arrows be rained on Shabbetai Ẓevi. If he survived, he was truly the Masîḥ.

Sultan Mehmed IV wasn't very learned necessarily, despite being a fancy-fancy. His own Masîḥ, Christ, had died by Roman soldiers. Where did he get the idea that Shabbetai Ẓevi would be arrow-proof, invulnerable to Ottoman soldiers? Where do we get the idea that Arhats have no physical pain?
Probably from the concept of trial by ordeal, in which innocence is proven when the accused survives the ordeal.

Already mentioned earlier here in this thread.
I had to delete that because I literally forgot that Muslims have a Gnostic account of the crucifixion where Jesus gets an ascension to heaven and Allah creates an illusory Jesus to be crucified. It would have been a good point though.

It still begs the question as to how the sultan could have been so sure Allah wouldn't carry up Shabbetai Ẓevi and create an illusory version of him to "die" by the arrows.

I think the sultan just mostly wanted to kill him, and he did, in a way. Shabbetai Ẓevi converted to Islam to avoid the arrows and the Jewish would-be Messiah was no more. Why on earth he thought that was a good test for an authentic messiah, one could never know, but it is a good test for a false one. "Authentic" here simply meaning "with conviction unto death."
The thus come thus gone,
who has neither came nor went,
enthroned on men’s breath,

like the still turtle,
withdraws six appendages
and is clothed in light --

illuminating
the unilluminated
with three shining cures.
binocular
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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by binocular »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:09 amIt still begs the question as to how the sultan could have been so sure Allah wouldn't carry up Shabbetai Ẓevi and create an illusory version of him to "die" by the arrows.
Because God is a human invention and God does as humans want?

A trial by ordeal is basically a way to force God's hand (judicium Dei), or to force kamma's hand.

When people are unable to decide in a matter, they try to leave it up to some higher power, but they still dictate the terms on which this higher power is supposed to manifest.

For example, those who believe in God, try to force his hand in performing a trial by ordeal.
Those who believe in luck, may use the throw of a dice -- and yet the decision of what the meaning of the dice is and how many times it is to be thrown is entirely up to them, or lost in history/tradition.
A trial by ordeal reasoning can even be applied by those who believe in kamma: If you're kammically innocent, you will be unscathed if thrown into the fire.

Epistemically/doxastically, all such trials by ordeal are examples of not taking responsibility for making the decision in question.

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:09 amI think the sultan just mostly wanted to kill him, and he did, in a way. Shabbetai Ẓevi converted to Islam to avoid the arrows and the Jewish would-be Messiah was no more. Why on earth he thought that was a good test for an authentic messiah, one could never know, but it is a good test for a false one. "Authentic" here simply meaning "with conviction unto death."
"Kill them. For the Lord knows those that are His own."
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by binocular »

Dhammanando wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:30 amYou are putting the cart before the horse.

A correct understanding of how arahants behave should be based on how the texts describe their behaviour, not on fancies plucked out of thin air.

Armed with this understanding you will then be in a position to pose informed questions. I mean questions similar in character to those which King Milinda asked Nāgasena: "Given that the suttas predicate quality x of the Buddha, how come the Buddha was capable of doing action y? Isn't action y at odds with quality x?"

Then, armed with answers to these questions, you'll finally be in a position to construct an arahant-testing kit that's grounded in what the texts actually say about arahants rather than your own ungrounded and fanciful figments.

But if you can't even be bothered to ascertain what sort of behaviour the texts attribute to the Buddha and his arahant disciples, then by all means continue with your needle-haired yakkha talk.
How can this approach be distinguished from a self-fulfilling prophecy?
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

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Pascal2 wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:57 am I believe that understanding the meaning of the sentence "reaching the end of suffering" does not require any knowledge of the four noble truths.
But it does required knowing the 4NTs because what suffering is must be comprehended. For example, you, Pascal2, are not able to tell me what suffering really is. :)
Pascal2 wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:57 amAnyone with a basic knowledge of English language will be able to understand the meaning of this
No. Not so. For example, you, Pascal2, are not able to tell me what suffering really is. :)
Pascal2 wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:57 amIf you prefer to discuss about suffering, then we can replace "Physical pain" with "suffering"
The above is unrelated to anything I said and the opposite.
Pascal2 wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:57 amIf Arahants do not suffer anymore they should be able to place a hand on the stove easily.
The mind of an arahant does not suffer. But the nervous system naturally recoils from a hot stove via reflex action. You appear to be posting superstition on this forum.



This said, monks have burned themselves and not appeared to move:

Pascal2 wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:57 amTheir nervous system will feel physical pain but they would not suffer.
Yes.
Pascal2 wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:57 am We can rephrase the sentence in this way, if you prefer.
Your posts are mostly of zero substance. IT SEEMS YOU DO NOT EVEN KNOW WHAT "SUFFERING" IS. :smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by DooDoot »

Pascal2 wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:14 amIt looks to me that the four noble truths are more on the philosophical side, rather than in the contingent side, if I may. :rolleye:
But I may be wrong on this
Not only wrong but nonsensical. I have spent the last 3 hours by the seaside alone at night in a beautiful ocean breeze. You are still here posting unintelligible nonsense or "gobbledygook".
Pascal2 wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:14 am I would like not to expand our discussion
We are not having a discussion. A discussion is a two-way exchange of intelligible ideas.
Pascal2 wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:14 am as this way we would lose focus on the main issue
The main issue is you appear to not even know what the 4 noble truths are. :smile:
Pascal2 wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:14 amI think it would be quite hard for anyone of us to even try to think how to try to disprove them (four noble truths).
You are now contradicting yourself. I recall you originally said the 4 noble truths are "unproven".
Pascal2 wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:14 amOn the other side, the end of suffering is a quite here-and-there claim that can be tested quite easily
It seems you do not even know what suffering is; let alone know what the end of suffering is. :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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