Buddhism, Bhagavad Gīta, Mahābhārata, witch-burning etc.

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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markandeya
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Re: Buddhism, the Bhagavad Gīta and the Mahābhārata

Post by markandeya »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:06 am
markandeya wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:24 am Totally agree
And let's not even begin get into all the multitudinous places Mary's gotten to. I caught her on some of my toast this morning, but I whipped out a quick exorcism and chased her out of it with a vi ra hūṁ khaṁ.
Ok sam, you was already boring along time ago back your books were done here you have had your daily stimulation of insults



Coëmgenu




This is why within the native traditions as they are in their natural environment hold no real value to historical figures, Buddha is not a prophet or a historical person, in nath sampradaya which is an ancient oral tradition the story of Buddha is a pravachana Katha wisdom stories, they are timeless and applicable even today

You mentioned that Sri Lanka says the Buddha has his history there it’s a bit hard on my phone to quote you exactly but why would that be a problem why does Buddha have to be only one individual isn’t Buddha a potential within everyone

Isn’t there a deeper meaning behind this,for me and what I have learned Buddha simple means mind awakening to the way things are, it doesn’t have to be more complicated than that, we dont even need to hav a philosophical view

The languages are also nama and rupa and represent a form of consciousness, I have attempted to explain this here but if it’s not the mundane name and form of mental and physical phenomena then it’s invalid , it’s quite hard to describe in English at least for me anyway, because English doesn’t have the right equivalents

There was a thread about 84000 vihara of Ashoka and nobody knows where they are, what was interesting is that the colonials when first trying to find the person Ashoka the natives didn’t know who he was , I wrote a reply but admins took it down because vihara doesn’t necessarily mean a temple made of bricks and Mortar. Like Buddha Ashoka and pandavas and kauravas these are all stories that describe something deeper.



Mary is probably part of a culture synthesis where in ancient Britain and Europe a form of Devi or divine feminine was proceeding protecting and manifesting the ultimate reality and gradually they replaced all existing forms of divine feminine into one system because there are no traces or written records of pre Roman Britain or very few because they destroyed most it , if not for sujata Buddha to be would not have attained Bodhi or enlightenment, but this is seldom spoke about, obviously there is a deeper esoteric meaning to this other than a physical historic account of the Buddha to be fasting and then a village girl giving him some rice porridge

If Buddha dharma is a bhagavat dharma then the divine feminine has to be there one way or another or they are erasing it

In pali and other Buddha traditions and traditions what is the meaning of Bhagavan avoiding mundane concepts religious ideas such as an external god

What does the writing say in your signature and how do use vi ra hūṁ khaṁ as a mantra

Thanks
Last edited by markandeya on Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Buddhism, the Bhagavad Gīta and the Mahābhārata

Post by Sam Vara »

markandeya wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:53 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:06 am
markandeya wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:24 am Totally agree
And let's not even begin get into all the multitudinous places Mary's gotten to. I caught her on some of my toast this morning, but I whipped out a quick exorcism and chased her out of it with a vi ra hūṁ khaṁ.
Ok sam, you was already boring along time ago back your books were done here you have had your daily stimulation of insult
You appear to be confusing me with Coëmgenu...
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markandeya
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Re: Buddhism, the Bhagavad Gīta and the Mahābhārata

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I simple replied to you first without quoting to try and end your useless snobbery

Take a hint if all you want to do is find fault and be snob maybe find another person to pick on and try and bully with your facts, literal minds really is a mental illness

Now please enough as I said your already boring and you have had your daily mental fix of insults which is all on you I care not

;)
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Re: Buddhism, Bhagavad Gīta, Mahābhārata, witch-burning etc.

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Spiritual advancement ki jai!
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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markandeya
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Re: Buddhism, Bhagavad Gīta, Mahābhārata, witch-burning etc.

Post by markandeya »

binocular wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:22 am Spiritual advancement ki jai!
Is it to much to ask some of you to stick with the title of thread

:focus:
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Re: Buddhism, the Bhagavad Gīta and the Mahābhārata

Post by Sam Vara »

markandeya wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:19 am I simple replied to you first without quoting to try and end your useless snobbery

Take a hint if all you want to do is find fault and be snob maybe find another person to pick on and try and bully with your facts, literal minds really is a mental illness

Now please enough as I said your already boring and you have had your daily mental fix of insults which is all on you I care not

;)
No snobbery here. I merely corrected an egregious factual inaccuracy. Since then I've been fielding attempts to discredit that correction. You might find that boring, but if you insist that a respect for factual truth is in some sense discreditable, then I'll respond, thanks.
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Re: Buddhism, Bhagavad Gīta, Mahābhārata, witch-burning etc.

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A bird's-eye view, historical Buddha's take on God. From AN 3.61. Sectarian https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN3_62.html Let us be careful not to insult Tathagata.
From the Discourses of the Buddha: slightly modified to suit modern means of rapid communication. 
Buddha speaks:
"I approached one group of sectarians who hold the following doctrine and view
'Whatever a person experiences, is all caused by a supreme being's act of creation'
I said to them:
'Is it true that you hold that,"Whatever a person experiences, is all caused by a supreme being's act of creation?"
Thus asked by me, they admitted,
 'Yes.'
 
Then I said to them 
'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings because of a supreme being's act of creation. A person is a thief, doofus, half-wit, jackass, nutcase, simpleton, moron, a numskull, a liar, an idiot, an idle chatterer, greedy, malicious, a holder of wrong views because of a supreme being's act of creation
  • When one falls back on creation by a supreme being as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort at discerning what is right and wrong
  • When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected
 
This was my second righteous refutation of those God Believers, who hold to such teachings, such views as 
'Whatever a person experiences, is all caused by a supreme being's act of creation'" 
A bird's-eye view. From the Discourses of the Buddha,
With neither malicious intent, nor ill-will. May all beings be happy!
With love  :candle:
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Re: Buddhism, the Bhagavad Gīta and the Mahābhārata

Post by markandeya »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:47 am
markandeya wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:19 am I simple replied to you first without quoting to try and end your useless snobbery

Take a hint if all you want to do is find fault and be snob maybe find another person to pick on and try and bully with your facts, literal minds really is a mental illness

Now please enough as I said your already boring and you have had your daily mental fix of insults which is all on you I care not

;)
No snobbery here. I merely corrected an egregious factual inaccuracy. Since then I've been fielding attempts to discredit that correction. You might find that boring, but if you insist that a respect for factual truth is in some sense discreditable, then I'll respond, thanks.
Geez you can carry on in mundane conversation for ever

If you re read I said maybe the figure was wrong and here you are gloating when I already acknowledged the figure may not be right

Talk about boring


:zzz:
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Re: Buddhism, the Bhagavad Gīta and the Mahābhārata

Post by Coëmgenu »

markandeya wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:53 am This is why within the native traditions as they are in their natural environment hold no real value to historical figures, Buddha is not a prophet or a historical person, in nath sampradaya which is an ancient oral tradition the story of Buddha is a pravachana Katha wisdom stories, they are timeless and applicable even today
Hindus have stories about the Buddha, but they don't always agree with Buddhist accounts of the Buddha. I guess it's just a matter of which sources you want to believe. Buddhists also think the Buddhadharma is timeless and applicable even today. I can't think of a religion that believes in its own total inefficacy, that it is useless.
markandeya wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:53 am You mentioned that Sri Lanka says the Buddha has his history there it’s a bit hard on my phone to quote you exactly but why would that be a problem why does Buddha have to be only one individual isn’t Buddha a potential within everyone
There is a difference in being a potentiality and being a fruition of a potentiality. If people want to believe in a Buddha from Sri Lanka, they can. I never said they couldn't. A lot of wise people think he was from India. I guess it just depends on who one wants to believe.
markandeya wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:53 am The languages are also nama and rupa and represent a form of consciousness, I have attempted to explain this here but if it’s not the mundane name and form of mental and physical phenomena then it’s invalid , it’s quite hard to describe in English at least for me anyway, because English doesn’t have the right equivalents
Are you saying you think languages have minds and some form of independent autonomy given to them by the collectivity of their speakers? You can believe that, but it's just another faith-based opinion.
markandeya wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:53 am In pali and other Buddha traditions and traditions what is the meaning of Bhagavan avoiding mundane concepts religious ideas such as an external god

What does the writing say in your signature and how do use vi ra hūṁ khaṁ as a mantra

Thanks
IMO Bhagavān is simply a title. It has an etymology of course, and I'm sure one could find it online. Buddha is also ultimately just a title. It means one who has woken up, but functionally it's a title conveniently shorter than Tathāgata. Bhagavān does have a sense of "god" to it, but the Buddha is clear that he is not a deva. It is an expression of praise to the Buddha to give him a high-ranking title. Arhat is a similar title. It has more diverse a translation history. I've seen "praise-worthy one,""worthy one," etc., but what it really is is a title for a Śrāvakabuddha. Elder Monks are also called Nāgas as a title -- that doesn't mean they spontaneously transform. You don't need a Devatā for a Bhagavān.

The text in my signature is in Chinese and English, and is a somewhat flowery rendering of some terse verse from the Saṁyuktāgama. I think it's some kind of gāthā, and might have been marginalia incorporated into the Saṁyuktāgama manuscript tradition. I rather like it.

唵阿毘羅吽欠金剛界鑁
on a bi ra un ken bazaradato ban
oṁ a vi ra hūṁ khaṁ vajradhātu vaṁ

In Mahāyāna Buddhism, mantras are not collections of intrinsically sacred syllables, nor are they semantic statements. These seven non-words (with the exception of vajradhātu, "diamond realm," a conventional Sanskrit word in stem form) are seven contemplations on discrete subjects: the four great elements, empty space, the mind, and the Buddha. The mahābhūta contemplations are inner-outer meditations in the trandition of mindfulness of the 4 elements. Altogether, the syllables are a mnemonic device for a contemplation and do double-duty as a Buddhānusmṛti aid for Vairocana.

a / earth
vi / water
ra / fire
hūṁ / wind
khaṁ / space
vajradhātu / mind
vaṁ / Vairocana

It doesn't have a lot of purpose outside of its intented function. It is chanted in the evening and the morning liturgies in the Tendai, Shingon, and possibly the Kegon schools, and shows up in the fire sacrifices of those traditions. I was just joking about exorcizing my toast with it. It is used in Japanese exorcisms at a syncretic localized folk level, and I think it entered into Shugendō and they'd probably have their uses of it for what-have-you. Maybe the exorcisms work. Who knows?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Buddhism, the Bhagavad Gīta and the Mahābhārata

Post by Sam Vara »

markandeya wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:42 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:47 am
markandeya wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:19 am I simple replied to you first without quoting to try and end your useless snobbery

Take a hint if all you want to do is find fault and be snob maybe find another person to pick on and try and bully with your facts, literal minds really is a mental illness

Now please enough as I said your already boring and you have had your daily mental fix of insults which is all on you I care not

;)
No snobbery here. I merely corrected an egregious factual inaccuracy. Since then I've been fielding attempts to discredit that correction. You might find that boring, but if you insist that a respect for factual truth is in some sense discreditable, then I'll respond, thanks.
Geez you can carry on in mundane conversation for ever

If you re read I said maybe the figure was wrong and here you are gloating when I already acknowledged the figure may not be right

Talk about boring


:zzz:
I'm not gloating at all. I politely pointed out your error a day ago, and would have been content to leave it at that. You could now have moved on to something else, but instead you have had the thread re-named and drawn attention to the thing you now admit was an error, but which you apparently want to bring up repeatedly. Since then, I have done nothing more than defend myself from a string of insults such as "snob", "boring", "poor thing", "anal", "narrowminded", "colonial", "suffering from cabin fever" "stuck in the mud" and "nasty", all presumably quoted direct from the more devotional sections of the Vedas. If you are bored, don't respond. If you want to respond with denigration, I'll continue to point out how silly that is, without giving way to ad hominem insults.
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Re: Buddhism, Bhagavad Gīta, Mahābhārata, witch-burning etc.

Post by Pulsar »

No_Mind wrote:
I do not deny God. But the God I like to think of is Tao. A God who looks like us is rather odd
thanks and for your idea of God.
It is fine to believe in a god or gods, as long as one does not bribe the god, and ask for favors, as long as one can stand on one's own feet.
In fact Quantum Physicists believe in god too.
"scientists confirmed the detection of the long-sought Higgs boson, also known by its nickname the "God particle," at the Large Hadron Collider (LHC), the most powerful particle accelerator on the planet. This particle helps give mass to all elementary particles that have mass, such as electrons and protons"
Giving mass to everything, quite an awesome-ly powerful particle AKA God
It is kind of fun interacting with
you. :heart:
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Re: Buddhism, Bhagavad Gīta, Mahābhārata, witch-burning etc.

Post by markandeya »

Coëmgenu


Thanks for your reply
markandeya wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:53 am
The languages are also nama and rupa and represent a form of consciousness, I have attempted to explain this here but if it’s not the mundane name and form of mental and physical phenomena then it’s invalid , it’s quite hard to describe in English at least for me anyway, because English doesn’t have the right equivalents
Are you saying you think languages have minds and some form of independent autonomy given to them by the collectivity of their speakers? You can believe that, but it's just another faith-based opinion.
Sorry but i am not to sure what you mean by this, nama and rupa has two sides one gross and the other supramental, concepts of mind and i am the body idea are the gross nama and rupa, supra mental nama and rupa is the cosmic body of the brahmanda or cosmic universe nama is moon lineages and rupa sun lineages, many ways to describe this. Just recently i was listening to Sayadaw U Silananda, while not going into detail he does say that there is subtle and profound nama and rupa, i attempted to write something here but as usual it was written off. If consciousness whatever state it is, has not had experience of transcendent or supramental realms it will remain hidden and obscure because mind and senses are still conditioned with-outward empirical conditioning, the profound nama and rupa in akash so its invisible to mind and senses.

Nama and Rupa is is also the middle way, there are many ways to describe the subtle cosmos and its filled with infinite variations but all are non dual to buddha and bhagavan which are also non dual. The texts while the expression has variety all speak in one way of another on tri loka and sunyata, these are the 3 states of consciousness and unbounded stateless state. I think its better to find out about this things via sadhana and ones own personal inner question for enlightenment, but each conditioned person has to pass through the cosmos before enlightenment, it cant be avoided, no short cuts.......

Nama and Rupa is also mantra yoga, reciting mantra bhija mantra if anyone has been lucky enough to get the right according their own system, and other forms of mantra, chanting suttas and sutra also elevate the mind, most texts in ancient times are recited and meditated up on with sound nama which then brings light rupa, one can also do visualisation on nama and rupa, starting with the senses and mind and then internalizing until profound awakening happens. Only yogis and people who actually practice will understand all this, it cant be done by reading books, although it can help if done positively.


Back to the topic. Bhagavan is key to understanding that there is no division in any of the dharma traditions, diversity does not mean difference or arguments. Bhagavan transcends time and locaction due to him being in sunya. Ultimately Bhagavan is param joyti and is ineffible and is the supreme luminator of all things it can only be known through nama and rupa which is his cosmic body which is endowed with all vibhuti and is shines light that destroys all klesha and avidya, there is no evil in him, even in his forms of Dharma Protectors and fearful forms of mahakal he is chasing away fear, fear itself is chased away by the power of Bhagavan Rupa in the form of Dharma protectors. All nama and rupa are shiva, who means auspicious and gracious and his rudra amsa destroys all conditioned vrittis.

Bhagavan and his nama and rupa which is nirguna brahman formless unconditioned and boundless has unlimited universes but each bhagavan is not different to the other, Krsna Shiva mahavira, buddha all one they are all bhagavan, and these are just few cosmic names and forms which are always shunya parabrahman never bounded by mind and senses.

This is just a quick reply off the top of my head, i guess sometimes people see from different angles or have their own views and can go on forever or get stuck in concepts, but in reality there is no argument in any of the dharma traditions and bhagavata dharma, only in false views which are manufactured by mind an create divisions where there is non.


Thanks for the explanation of the mantra very nice. I do have some questions on it but maybe another time and in pm if you like so the pack of wolves dont eat me lol

:sage:
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Re: Buddhism, Bhagavad Gīta, Mahābhārata, witch-burning etc.

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markandeya wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:19 am If consciousness whatever state it is, has not had experience of transcendent or supramental realms it will remain hidden and obscure because mind and senses are still conditioned with-outward empirical conditioning, the profound nama and rupa in akash so its invisible to mind and senses.
These realms are still part of your body(or head, brain). You won't discern it, but later you will see that it just function on some part of the body. Regular breathing what we take as ordinary, it is not ordinary, we say it is regular because we all have it. The worldly knowledge is what people currently believe in. The otherworldly is just extraordinary in that sense its covered by ignorance and wrong beliefs.

Was that above the idea you try to convey or something else?

How do you unobscure the senses? so that fire doesn't burn anymore? rūpa is what gets afflicted and rūpa isn't subject to the thoughts, as you can't command rūpa to do something.
So what is the mediation or discipline here what would let you experience transcendental states? are these similar to the dream state?
*yeah it suggest empirical answer, so what you going to do about it, will you remain dreamy, imaginary with never-tangible progress and solutions?
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Re: Buddhism, Bhagavad Gīta, Mahābhārata, witch-burning etc.

Post by Coëmgenu »

markandeya wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:19 am Thanks for the explanation of the mantra very nice. I do have some questions on it but maybe another time and in pm if you like so the pack of wolves dont eat me lol

:sage:
Whatever please you. I am rather mystified by your inability to see that you are a Hindu, I will say. But I suppose we just have a difference of opinion there.

Right down to your nāmarūpa, your Dharma is more Hindu than Buddhist. But that is part of the modern Hindu project, isn't it? To cover diversity with sameness with regards to all things Dharma. Great lip-service is paid to Hinduism's own internal diversity of course, but the fundamental assumption that the Buddha taught a Dharma mystically the same, in whichever way have you, to the Vedic Rishis, various later gurus etc., ends up ultimately having to favour one side.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Buddhism, Bhagavad Gīta, Mahābhārata, witch-burning etc.

Post by markandeya »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:02 pm
markandeya wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:19 am Thanks for the explanation of the mantra very nice. I do have some questions on it but maybe another time and in pm if you like so the pack of wolves dont eat me lol

:sage:
Whatever please you. I am rather mystified by your inability to see that you are a Hindu, I will say. But I suppose we just have a difference of opinion there.

Right down to your nāmarūpa, your Dharma is more Hindu than Buddhist. But that is part of the modern Hindu project, isn't it? To cover diversity with sameness with regards to all things Dharma. Great lip-service is paid to Hinduism's own internal diversity of course, but the fundamental assumption that the Buddha taught a Dharma mystically the same, in whichever way have you, to the Vedic Rishis, various later gurus etc., ends up ultimately having to favour one side.


I am not hindu, its just a title, mostly a national one, that doesnt have single belief. I do however understand where you coming from with the nationalist side of things, i dont agree but in some parts there is some good reason for this, this would be more to do with politics, i have lived long periods of my life in India over more than 30 years, and not just regular spiritual tourism. Its complex and i prefer not to get into it, especially online.

I know here people are quite stringently almost fundamentally against Hindu, one of my friends came here posted something quite nice and was treated very unfriendly, he was a gentle old Indian gentleman and was confused as to what people were so rude to him. Pity for the people that just want to continue the man made feud, but lets leave this for another time, i know the west in general gives a lot of importance for the outer , its all perception and conditioned based. Some of it absurb and so biased and backwards that apparently sanskrit shunya if it comes from shiva tradition is different to buddhas shunya, i mean come on that has to be one of the most funniest and absurd thing i heard since i last read there is a hindu samadhi and buddhist samadhi lol can samadhi be two, is there two types of shunya haha hilarious :)


The solution is in fact quite simple if one has simple heart and mind, any complication will add to the complex nature of how the dharma traditions seem to be split. You make these distinction that you are Buddhist you are hindu, i only study vidya, what nama and rupa am i supposed to write down, i have so much texts committed to memory, i never saw any conflict in them, people translate conflict into them.

I could back up so much of what i say with quotes from suttas and sources, and sanskirt texts even mahayana texts from good sources, but i have hardly ever used the texts in this way, they were never meant for debate and proving an intellectual point.

Solution is quite simple, bhagavat dharma is one, its not about interfaith, this again is an external idea, but maybe better than building walls, but bhagavata dharma is what is the real core of the dharma traditions.

All these historical dates, where each bhagavan had a presence and teaching opposing another is laughable in its most simple form and a crying shame in the way that mundane humans and have made something beautiful into a mess, which is not just a philosophical puzzle but has caused create damage and still does to this day and has severe negative impact on peoples lives. This is the problem and this is mostly why i say that these mundane divisions need to end. But seems this is the wrong place, the buddhist here do not want division and conflict to end.

Then only time will be your teacher

Good luck with that

:popcorn:
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