Buddhism, Bhagavad Gīta, Mahābhārata, witch-burning etc.

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10171
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Buddhism, Bhagavad Gīta, Mahābhārata, witch-burning etc.

Post by Spiny Norman »

auto wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:01 pm
mikenz66 wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:33 am
auto wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:24 pm ...
As Coëmgenu notes, if one was interested in what the other religions actually taught, it would be odd to use Buddhist texts as one's sole source of information. That would be like relying on descriptions of Buddhist, and other "heathen", practices by outsiders such as Christians:
Er petticoat was yaller an' 'er little cap was green,
An' 'er name was Supi-yaw-lat -- jes' the same as Theebaw's Queen,
An' I seed her first a-smokin' of a whackin' white cheroot,
An' a-wastin' Christian kisses on an 'eathen idol's foot:
Bloomin' idol made o'mud --
Wot they called the Great Gawd Budd --
Plucky lot she cared for idols when I kissed 'er where she stud!
On the road to Mandalay,
Where the flyin'-fishes play,
An' the dawn comes up like thunder outer China 'crost the Bay!

https://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/ ... dalay.html
Kipling's poem does contain some very astute observations about the longings of the former soldier, but not much insight into the Dhamma.

:heart:
Mike
then one needs assume the religion what you follow is using underhanded methods, thus not suitable anymore to follow by my standards.
I think you need to assume that religions are generally self-promoting. Buddhist schools are not immune.
If you want to understand texts from one tradition, the worst thing you can do is view them through the lens of another tradition.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8150
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Buddhism, Bhagavad Gīta, Mahābhārata, witch-burning etc.

Post by Coëmgenu »

mikenz66 wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:33 am As Coëmgenu notes, if one was interested in what the other religions actually taught, it would be odd to use Buddhist texts as one's sole source of information.
Yes. Even a deeply informed critique of another religion from the perspective of a sage from another religion is going to describe things differently. We're dealing with insider vs outsider here, even though that largely merely boils down to a matter of acquired in-group language. But that in-group language is very important! It's one of the things that makes the "group."

There are a few pieces of what looks like bona fide Brahminical self-narratives presented in the Buddhavacana, for instance that Brahmins consider themselves in some way as "born of the mouth of Brahmā," etc. But we don't have enough of these Brahmin voices engaged in credo-like declarations to paint a picture of an entire functioning religion-and-mythology, and a diverse one at that. And why would/should we? Brahminism isn't "important" from a Buddhist perspective necessarily. The Buddha was laying out the path to the end of suffering -- laying out his "Buddhism." He wasn't an anthropologist of human religion interested in capturing the various self-narratives a community tells about itself and tells to itself and tells to other people about itself. It makes sense that you don't really see a full insider picture of ancient Hinduism from the POV of Buddhist scriptures. You get what's important with respect to the Buddhadharma and comparisons to the Buddhadharma/Dhammavinaya, not what's important with respect to the ancient Hindus, Brahmin or not.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
binocular
Posts: 8292
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Buddhism, Bhagavad Gīta, Mahābhārata, witch-burning etc.

Post by binocular »

Dinsdale wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 3:51 pmIf you want to understand texts from one tradition, the worst thing you can do is view them through the lens of another tradition.
Reading this, I vividly recalled a brief exchange I once had with a Hare Krishna brahmacari at their regular weekly religious meeting. He read a verse from their Bhagavad Gita and then Srila Prabhupada's, ie. their founder's, commentary. I don't recall exactly what verse it was, but it was something about Buddhism. It was a very basic misrepresentation of Buddhism, one easily refuted and set straight by the suttas (and it wasn't even a Mahayana teaching either). So since this was a small group of people and discussion was welcome, I spoke up and sort of directly-indirectly said that that commentary was misrepresenting Buddhism, and offered sutta evidence. The brahmacari didn't bat an eyelash and went on making a number of unsubstantiated claims about Buddhist doctrine, and concluded, with a characteristic lightness, smiling, that "nobody takes those Buddhists seriously anyway".

From the insider perspective of a religion/spirituality, the best thing you can do is view another religion/spirituality through the lens of said religion/spirituality. The smug grins on the faces of those Hare Krishna folks there spoke a million words.

My point is that understanding texts from other traditions is always done through the lens of another tradition, and always for some self-serving purpose.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
auto
Posts: 4583
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Buddhism, Bhagavad Gīta, Mahābhārata, witch-burning etc.

Post by auto »

Dinsdale wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 3:51 pm
auto wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:01 pm
mikenz66 wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:33 am
As Coëmgenu notes, if one was interested in what the other religions actually taught, it would be odd to use Buddhist texts as one's sole source of information. That would be like relying on descriptions of Buddhist, and other "heathen", practices by outsiders such as Christians:

Kipling's poem does contain some very astute observations about the longings of the former soldier, but not much insight into the Dhamma.

:heart:
Mike
then one needs assume the religion what you follow is using underhanded methods, thus not suitable anymore to follow by my standards.
I think you need to assume that religions are generally self-promoting. Buddhist schools are not immune.
If you want to understand texts from one tradition, the worst thing you can do is view them through the lens of another tradition.
Brahmins and Aryans both use 8 fold path. Also both have supramundane view. The difference starts from 3rd jhāna. Metta practices doesn't constitute of 3rd way of developing right concentration as it includes that impure clinging to sukha(or was it clinging to piti..or pitisukha).
Also therefore the classification of 5 types of brahmins and 4 types of noble ones, is dependable of the practices they do and respectively denotes 4 types of path and path attainments. Both have 1st and 2nd jhāna but one is brahmins ways gotten 1st-2nd other is aryan way.
Even typical householders get via kamma(good actions) into 1-2 while they are not neither of these above ways.

So aren't it better now, if I understand those millions upon millions of words doesn't go over 2nd jhāna. Follow the best principle is the best. Now my point(the point I made, not mine) is understood, if someone has understanding what surpasses mine then i'm all ears.
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8150
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Buddhism, Bhagavad Gīta, Mahābhārata, witch-burning etc.

Post by Coëmgenu »

binocular wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:14 pm My point is that understanding texts from other traditions is always done through the lens of another tradition, and always for some self-serving purpose.
Like my own sharing of an "emphasis added" Viśvarūpadarśana, to serve the self-serving purpose of arguing that "creationary theisms," if we'll forgive me making up a word, cannot escape the scandal of theodicy, wherein that which is perfectly good must nevertheless be the source of that which is evil. It shows up all over the place:
And now, do not let this trouble you for the present in your desire to learn how from one first principle of all, simple, and acknowledged by us and believed by us, ungenerated and incorruptible and good, were constituted these natures of corruption and the middle [i.e. the demiurgic power], which are different substances, although it is characteristic of the good to generate and produce things which are like itself and have the same substance.
(Ptolemy, disciple of Valentine, Letter to Flora)

Avoiding theodicy like a proper Abrahamic, not like those shamless Hindus :spy:! "Do not let this trouble you. Just pop it off into a dark corner of your head to not think about. ever."

Let's not even begin to get into the self-serving purposes with which the sort of Buddhist modernists who proclaim themselves Arhats or Śrotapannas with neither knowledge of rebirth nor of deeds read their scriptures, i.e. through a looking-glass.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: Buddhism, Bhagavad Gīta, Mahābhārata, witch-burning etc.

Post by confusedlayman »

auto wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:50 am
Dinsdale wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 3:51 pm
auto wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:01 pm
then one needs assume the religion what you follow is using underhanded methods, thus not suitable anymore to follow by my standards.
I think you need to assume that religions are generally self-promoting. Buddhist schools are not immune.
If you want to understand texts from one tradition, the worst thing you can do is view them through the lens of another tradition.
Brahmins and Aryans both use 8 fold path. Also both have supramundane view. The difference starts from 3rd jhāna. Metta practices doesn't constitute of 3rd way of developing right concentration as it includes that impure clinging to sukha(or was it clinging to piti..or pitisukha).
Also therefore the classification of 5 types of brahmins and 4 types of noble ones, is dependable of the practices they do and respectively denotes 4 types of path and path attainments. Both have 1st and 2nd jhāna but one is brahmins ways gotten 1st-2nd other is aryan way.
Even typical householders get via kamma(good actions) into 1-2 while they are not neither of these above ways.

So aren't it better now, if I understand those millions upon millions of words doesn't go over 2nd jhāna. Follow the best principle is the best. Now my point(the point I made, not mine) is understood, if someone has understanding what surpasses mine then i'm all ears.
Which brahmin has 2 jhanas?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
auto
Posts: 4583
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Buddhism, Bhagavad Gīta, Mahābhārata, witch-burning etc.

Post by auto »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:26 pm Which brahmin has 2 jhanas?
I was wrong, there are brahmins who practice all 4 jhāna.
https://suttacentral.net/an5.192/en/sujato wrote: And how is a brahmin equal to a god? Kathañca, doṇa, brāhmaṇo devasamo hoti?

When he has gone forth, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, he enters and remains in the first absorption … second absorption … third absorption … fourth absorption. So evaṃ pabbajito samāno vivicceva kāmehi … pe … catutthaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.
Having developed these four absorptions, when the body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm. So ime cattāro jhāne bhāvetvā kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā sugatiṃ saggaṃ lokaṃ upapajjati.
the mistake i did was how brahmin is equal to brahma
https://suttacentral.net/an3.80/en/sujato wrote:“Doṇa, how is a brahmin equal to Brahmā? “Kathañca, doṇa, brāhmaṇo brahmasamo hoti?

Then they meditate spreading a heart full of love to one direction, and to the second, and to the third, and to the fourth. In the same way above, below, across, everywhere, all around, they spread a heart full of love to the whole world—abundant, expansive, limitless, free of enmity and ill will. So evaṃ pabbajito samāno mettāsahagatena cetasā ekaṃ disaṃ pharitvā viharati, tathā dutiyaṃ tathā tatiyaṃ tathā catutthaṃ, iti uddhamadho tiriyaṃ sabbadhi sabbattatāya sabbāvantaṃ lokaṃ mettāsahagatena cetasā vipulena mahaggatena appamāṇena averena abyāpajjena pharitvā viharati.
They meditate spreading a heart full of compassion … Karuṇā … pe …
rejoicing … muditā …
equanimity to one direction, and to the second, and to the third, and to the fourth. In the same way above, below, across, everywhere, all around, they spread a heart full of equanimity to the whole world—abundant, expansive, limitless, free of enmity and ill will. upekkhāsahagatena cetasā ekaṃ disaṃ pharitvā viharati, tathā dutiyaṃ tathā tatiyaṃ tathā catutthaṃ, iti uddhamadho tiriyaṃ sabbadhi sabbattatāya sabbāvantaṃ lokaṃ upekkhāsahagatena cetasā vipulena mahaggatena appamāṇena averena abyāpajjena pharitvā viharati. Having developed these four Brahmā meditations, when the body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a good place, a Brahmā realm. So ime cattāro brahmavihāre bhāvetvā kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā sugatiṃ brahmalokaṃ upapajjati.
i didn't even notice that the brahmin doesn't become brahma, but goes to the brahma world after break up of the body.
https://suttacentral.net/sn55.54/en/sujato wrote: ‘Good sir, the Brahmā realm is impermanent, not lasting, and included within identity.‘brahmalokopi kho, āvuso, anicco addhuvo sakkāyapariyāpanno.It would be good to turn your mind away from the Brahmā realm and apply it to the cessation of identity.’Sādhāyasmā, brahmalokā cittaṃ vuṭṭhāpetvā sakkāyanirodhe cittaṃ upasaṃharāhī’ti.
it seem jhāna sends you to the sagga, heavenly world, which seem not belong to jhāna realm.

Whereas Brahmā realm is part of jhāna realm.
So
My bad its prolly only 1st jhāna not 2nd. Also I didn't know that practicing jhāna successfully won't grant you getting into these realms after break up of the body.

and the last quote, sn 55.54, is advice who are gravely ill, so it is interesting in a sense one can direct the mind towards different worlds, and the best is to turn away even from the Brahma realm and destroy identity. <--I assume it is when the body is broken up, one can do it.
Prolly one can't get to higher realms, when only(not removed asavas) practicing jhana while alive, due defilements, corruptions(without other person advice)
https://suttacentral.net/sn55.54/en/sujato wrote:then there is no difference between a lay follower whose mind is freed in this way and a mendicant whose mind is freed from defilements; that is,evaṃ vimuttacittassa kho, mahānāma, upāsakassa āsavā vimuttacittena bhikkhunā na kiñci nānākaraṇaṃ vadāmi, yadidaṃ—between the freedom of one and the other.”vimuttiyā vimuttan”ti.
that above, seem support the death moment advice and one gets liberated. Is equal to someone whos mind is free from defilements
User avatar
markandeya
Posts: 455
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:33 am

Re: Buddhism, Bhagavad Gīta, Mahābhārata, witch-burning etc.

Post by markandeya »

auto wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:11 pm
markandeya wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:17 am
auto wrote: Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:01 pm
My mistake, I read wrongly. I thought you said senses are obscured or something, I don't remember. I'm not hostile.


it seem you saying consciousness remains hidden and obscure.
Hi Auto, what i am saying is that mind has to be fined to understand the subtitles of nama and rupa as suprmental activity that leads directly to shunya. If there is no experience of these states then the texts will just remain linguistic and philosophical and within the domain of men who have klesha as their leader.

:sage:
Okay,
Certain visions will arise in the mind and feelings what are felt with the body. Whereas these feelings are felt with the mind if mind is attached to these feelings, but after let go, these feelings are felt with the body detached from the mind.

These visions can be triggered by supporting conditions. And then cultivate the effects on the body. To get acquainted so that it will come easier and easier(finer) to arose the effects to eventually let go of the supporting condition and then rely on the inclination on what you can foresee what it wants and this way arose vision, what then can be used to connect with the body and then mind will arise accompanied with the sensation what arises from the body.
--
What you can do then after the feelings are detached, is related to the centers responsible for copulation and generating generations, in this case the mind will attach itself to the gaseous substance and streaming upward what before were fluid-like but subject for applying force, pressure.

Not know exactly the processes but 10x more than couple years after making first opening of the centers in the body. What you prolly name supramental activity.

The supramental is just inner alchemy of the same process what are natural but natural is led by nature like how bird know how to fly to the south, if they would awaken they wouldn't know and be lost and would need start listen the body and train the mind ..
Supramental is prajna or panna , form this one inherently knows what is dhamma dharma and sunyata and that all empirical processes are invalid and remote learning is waste of time
User avatar
markandeya
Posts: 455
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:33 am

Re: Buddhism, Bhagavad Gīta, Mahābhārata, witch-burning etc.

Post by markandeya »

binocular wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:14 pm
Dinsdale wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 3:51 pmIf you want to understand texts from one tradition, the worst thing you can do is view them through the lens of another tradition.
Reading this, I vividly recalled a brief exchange I once had with a Hare Krishna brahmacari at their regular weekly religious meeting. He read a verse from their Bhagavad Gita and then Srila Prabhupada's, ie. their founder's, commentary. I don't recall exactly what verse it was, but it was something about Buddhism. It was a very basic misrepresentation of Buddhism, one easily refuted and set straight by the suttas (and it wasn't even a Mahayana teaching either). So since this was a small group of people and discussion was welcome, I spoke up and sort of directly-indirectly said that that commentary was misrepresenting Buddhism, and offered sutta evidence. The brahmacari didn't bat an eyelash and went on making a number of unsubstantiated claims about Buddhist doctrine, and concluded, with a characteristic lightness, smiling, that "nobody takes those Buddhists seriously anyway".

From the insider perspective of a religion/spirituality, the best thing you can do is view another religion/spirituality through the lens of said religion/spirituality. The smug grins on the faces of those Hare Krishna folks there spoke a million words.

My point is that understanding texts from other traditions is always done through the lens of another tradition, and always for some self-serving purpose.

Hare Krsnas have no idea what is Buddha Dharma

Same as most comments here

Your point of understanding the origin of any texts is invalid because tradition is only a vessel that maintains a portion of what was realised awakened people, in short everyone is an outsider if they are not fully awake or have not had any direct experience with ultimate reality how ever one wants call it or put intellectual concepts on it.

Blind leading the blind so to speak

Dharma is for those who are fully honest with themselves, but talking about it maybe passes time if there is nothing else to do or no ability is arisen.
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10171
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Buddhism, Bhagavad Gīta, Mahābhārata, witch-burning etc.

Post by Spiny Norman »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:06 pm
mikenz66 wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:33 am As Coëmgenu notes, if one was interested in what the other religions actually taught, it would be odd to use Buddhist texts as one's sole source of information.
Yes. Even a deeply informed critique of another religion from the perspective of a sage from another religion is going to describe things differently. We're dealing with insider vs outsider here, even though that largely merely boils down to a matter of acquired in-group language. But that in-group language is very important! It's one of the things that makes the "group."

There are a few pieces of what looks like bona fide Brahminical self-narratives presented in the Buddhavacana, for instance that Brahmins consider themselves in some way as "born of the mouth of Brahmā," etc. But we don't have enough of these Brahmin voices engaged in credo-like declarations to paint a picture of an entire functioning religion-and-mythology, and a diverse one at that. And why would/should we? Brahminism isn't "important" from a Buddhist perspective necessarily. The Buddha was laying out the path to the end of suffering -- laying out his "Buddhism." He wasn't an anthropologist of human religion interested in capturing the various self-narratives a community tells about itself and tells to itself and tells to other people about itself. It makes sense that you don't really see a full insider picture of ancient Hinduism from the POV of Buddhist scriptures. You get what's important with respect to the Buddhadharma and comparisons to the Buddhadharma/Dhammavinaya, not what's important with respect to the ancient Hindus, Brahmin or not.
Indeed. If you want to understand "Hinduism", then study Hindu texts and commentaries.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
binocular
Posts: 8292
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Buddhism, Bhagavad Gīta, Mahābhārata, witch-burning etc.

Post by binocular »

markandeya wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:43 amBlind leading the blind so to speak
Oh, how prophetic, given your avatar picture!
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
binocular
Posts: 8292
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Buddhism, Bhagavad Gīta, Mahābhārata, witch-burning etc.

Post by binocular »

Dinsdale wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:07 amIndeed. If you want to understand "Hinduism", then study Hindu texts and commentaries.
The thing is that you'll still understand them only through the lens of what is important to you, from your perspective.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10171
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Buddhism, Bhagavad Gīta, Mahābhārata, witch-burning etc.

Post by Spiny Norman »

binocular wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:19 am
Dinsdale wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:07 amIndeed. If you want to understand "Hinduism", then study Hindu texts and commentaries.
The thing is that you'll still understand them only through the lens of what is important to you, from your perspective.
Clearly an open mind is important. There is little point in reading texts if one has fixed views and strong preconceptions.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: Buddhism, Bhagavad Gīta, Mahābhārata, witch-burning etc.

Post by Sam Vara »

binocular wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:19 am
Dinsdale wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:07 amIndeed. If you want to understand "Hinduism", then study Hindu texts and commentaries.
The thing is that you'll still understand them only through the lens of what is important to you, from your perspective.
This might be slightly off-topic, but I think it's worth noting that part of the attraction of Buddhism is that not everyone finds notions like the existence of a God, souls, the origin of the universe, etc., to be important to them. But everyone finds their own suffering to be of importance.
SteRo
Posts: 5950
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am
Location: Εὐρώπη Eurṓpē

Re: Buddhism, Bhagavad Gīta, Mahābhārata, witch-burning etc.

Post by SteRo »

Sam Vara wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:44 pm ... I think it's worth noting that part of the attraction of Buddhism is that not everyone finds notions like the existence of a God, souls, the origin of the universe, etc., to be important to them. But everyone finds their own suffering to be of importance.
Self is the primary motivator and therefore is completely abandoned not before the end.
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
Post Reply