Guanyin

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
whynotme
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Re: Guanyin

Post by whynotme »

santa100 wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:27 pm
whynotme wrote:It seems that is not the case. The reason is time span.
I think you're missing the point. The OP's question is whether it's possible for the concept of a Bodhisatta (like Guanyin/Avalokiteshvara) to exist in the Theravada worldview. And the answer is yes, there's Metteya Bodhisatta who's doing his work right now. And since the Theravada's Nikayas only place a constraint on the existence of 1 Buddha per world system at a time, if the multiple-universe of modern physics is true, then there's nothing wrong with many other Buddhas and many other Bodhisattas existing in many other world systems or universes.
The answer is still a no. I addressed some details to show even the Gotama or Metteyya in their foremost run, are not superhuman.

If we consider Metteyya is the most important/powerful bodhisattva right now, then why pay homage to Guanyin? Why dont anyone pay homage to him, Metteyya? He has real name, real teacher, Guanyin got what? Nothing in history. Metteyya is the real deal, while Guanyin is a fake one. Like comparing gold with copper, Gotama or Metteyya are the real deals, while Guayin and Amitabha are fakes.

This is the trick of mahayana to steal the show. When the real Buddha sasana is still on Earth, why pay homage to Amitabha Buddha, an unreal fabricated Buddha.

Mahayana bodhisattvas are fake. A bodhisattva is an unenlightened being. So being unelightened, he can not help himself, how can he save other and the world like Guanyin? Fake, i call it fake.

A mahayana bodhisattva is a stupid being, where he refuses being enlightened to remain in samsara to help other. That idea is illogical, since the goal of a bodhisattva is striving for enlightenment in the first place, his whole effort is to be enlightened, and then the mahayana bodhisattva refuses to be enlightened. It is similar to someone who puts his whole effort into making money, and then he refuses the money, then what is his goal? He should learn mathematicals and logics before striving for other paramis of a Buddha, because he is fooling himself in another world system or universes. May he get qualification in physics to find a world system that is so illogical for himself to live and to fool ppl. Ah, maybe this Earth suits him, because ppl on Earth are so easy to be fooled by all the idea of mahayana. Maybe they are finding this planet for so long, and in the end they found a world system that fits their method. Its great isnt it? And then they drag all their gang here, Guayin, Amitabha, you may list some more stealers here that try to steal the sasana of Gotama.

Maybe there are other world system where bodhisattva and Buddha exist. But whoever they are, the bodhisattva on other planet can not be as important and smarter or helpful than the current bodhisattva on our planet.

Like a patient in a hospital hoping for a doctor on another hospital. Yes, there are doctors in other hospital, but they are not as helpful as the doctor in front of you, if they get the same qualification. All the idea of other world, other universe are just empty words to fake enlightenment. Enlightenment is right here right now, all the other place other time is the Mara illusion.

If Metteyya, our foremost being, is incapable of hearing the world to help ppl, then surely some unenlightened beings on another planets can not do it, in the hopeless situation of mahayana believers.

There is something called kamma. If Gotama can not help someone who is not kammic related to him, then surely on another planet, it is hopeless.
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sentinel
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Re: Guanyin

Post by sentinel »

whynotme wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:17 pm .....
According to some scholars Metteyya is not a real deal . Metteyya story was an addition after the death of Buddha and the teachings developed into various early schools . Some have speculated that inspiration for Maitreya may have come from Mithra, the ancient Indo-Iranian deity.
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whynotme
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Re: Guanyin

Post by whynotme »

sentinel wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:30 pm
whynotme wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:17 pm .....
According to some scholars Metteyya is not a real deal . Metteyya story was an addition after the death of Buddha and the teachings developed into various early schools . Some have speculated that inspiration for Maitreya may have come from Mithra, the ancient Indo-Iranian deity.
Thanks for your info

Osho talked about Metteyya and Jesus, so I believe him.

Osho is a real deal, and he said he was assassinated by US government, and I believe him.

It is very hard to find someone like Osho. He is very straight and comment on a lot of problems and ppl.

His view is very unique. I believe Osho is a Buddha.

You can believe your scholars.
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sentinel
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Re: Guanyin

Post by sentinel »

whynotme wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:08 pm
Thanks for your info

Osho talked about Metteyya and Jesus, so I believe him.

Osho is a real deal, and he said he was assassinated by US government, and I believe him.

It is very hard to find someone like Osho. He is very straight and comment on a lot of problems and ppl.

His view is very unique. I believe Osho is a Buddha.

You can believe your scholars.
Oh dont misunderstand i believe or not believe in the scholars , just portray that they are many different views whether it is about Metteya , Guan Yin or whatever .
But you are the one believe in Metteya and disbelieve in other things you dont really know yet .
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whynotme
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Re: Guanyin

Post by whynotme »

Well, what should I do? From Therevada point of view, only Metteyya is described, not Guanyin.

Sorry for my attitude, but I have seen mahayana mafia. They tried anything to bring superstition where they talked. It is a grand game of mara to try to talk about unknown things to confuse ppl. I have seen this another world system, another universe game. It is just a game of mara to convince ppl, drag them out of reality of here and now.

A dream of a savior in another world system, is enough to fool pseudo scientific ppl.

Mara has mundane ppl which works for him. From IT to hacker to politicians... Of course mara always hides his real face and uses different names to persuade ppl, e.g god, or call himself as famous dead ppl through mediums... that is to play his game.

But I believe it when Osho said after 2500 years, the Buddha will come back in the name Metteyya. He said that enlightened ppl will come back, but this time, not in the role of a master, but a friend, bc Metteyya or Maitreya just means friendship in pali and sanskrit. So enlightened ppl will come back as friendly ppl, and that is his Metteyya prophecy.

A Buddha like Osho does not talk nonsense, so Maitreyya is coming, not Guanyin, not Amitabha, but Metteyya is coming to Earth for real. Fearing this, mara plays all his cards, but even him will know for sure he can not stop the prophecy of the Buddhas. Mara is just a minor deva, above him there are many higher realms of powerful devas like brahma, and many of them are disciplines of Gotama. They just let mara play like a child, but they will make sure the prophecy of the Buddhas will become reality.

Metteyya is just a name for a friendly enlightened person. The golden era of Buddhism is coming with Metteyya, not Guanyin, not Amitabha.

As you said, there are things I dont know like the planet Guanyin is currently on. I think, for a great being like Guanyin, he shouldn't live on a planet like Earth. He and Amitabha should live in a star, like a sun, bright like the sun. He and Christian god. 6000 years old Christian god should live in a black hole, because even a sun is not enough important for him. A black hole is much more massive thus much more important than the sun. Another black hole for Amitabha, and another black hole for Guanyin. Happy black holes
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Guanyin

Post by Coëmgenu »

whynotme wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:06 pm Well, what should I do? From Therevada point of view, only Metteyya is described, not Guanyin.

Sorry for my attitude, but I have seen mahayana mafia. They tried anything to bring superstition where they talked. It is a grand game of mara to try to talk about unknown things to confuse ppl. I have seen this another world system, another universe game. It is just a game of mara to convince ppl, drag them out of reality of here and now.

A dream of a savior in another world system, is enough to fool pseudo scientific ppl.

Mara has mundane ppl which works for him. From IT to hacker to politicians... Of course mara always hides his real face and uses different names to persuade ppl, e.g god, or call himself as famous dead ppl through mediums... that is to play his game.

But I believe it when Osho said after 2500 years, the Buddha will come back in the name Metteyya. He said that enlightened ppl will come back, but this time, not in the role of a master, but a friend, bc Metteyya or Maitreya just means friendship in pali and sanskrit. So enlightened ppl will come back as friendly ppl, and that is his Metteyya prophecy.

A Buddha like Osho does not talk nonsense, so Maitreyya is coming, not Guanyin, not Amitabha, but Metteyya is coming to Earth for real. Fearing this, mara plays all his cards, but even him will know for sure he can not stop the prophecy of the Buddhas. Mara is just a minor deva, above him there are many higher realms of powerful devas like brahma, and many of them are disciplines of Gotama. They just let mara play like a child, but they will make sure the prophecy of the Buddhas will become reality.

Metteyya is just a name for a friendly enlightened person. The golden era of Buddhism is coming with Metteyya, not Guanyin, not Amitabha.

As you said, there are things I dont know like the planet Guanyin is currently on. I think, for a great being like Guanyin, he shouldn't live on a planet like Earth. He and Amitabha should live in a star, like a sun, bright like the sun. He and Christian god. 6000 years old Christian god should live in a black hole, because even a sun is not enough important for him. A black hole is much more massive thus much more important than the sun. Another black hole for Amitabha, and another black hole for Guanyin. Happy black holes
Mahayana talked about Metteyya and Buddha, so I believe it.

Mahayana is a real deal.

Mahayana was assassinated by US government, so I believe it.

:spy: :toilet:
Then, the monks sang this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and rots.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.

(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
polaris
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Re: Guanyin

Post by polaris »

whynotme wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:17 pm
santa100 wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:27 pm
whynotme wrote:It seems that is not the case. The reason is time span.
I think you're missing the point. The OP's question is whether it's possible for the concept of a Bodhisatta (like Guanyin/Avalokiteshvara) to exist in the Theravada worldview. And the answer is yes, there's Metteya Bodhisatta who's doing his work right now. And since the Theravada's Nikayas only place a constraint on the existence of 1 Buddha per world system at a time, if the multiple-universe of modern physics is true, then there's nothing wrong with many other Buddhas and many other Bodhisattas existing in many other world systems or universes.
The answer is still a no. I addressed some details to show even the Gotama or Metteyya in their foremost run, are not superhuman.

If we consider Metteyya is the most important/powerful bodhisattva right now, then why pay homage to Guanyin? Why dont anyone pay homage to him, Metteyya? He has real name, real teacher, Guanyin got what? Nothing in history. Metteyya is the real deal, while Guanyin is a fake one. Like comparing gold with copper, Gotama or Metteyya are the real deals, while Guayin and Amitabha are fakes.

This is the trick of mahayana to steal the show. When the real Buddha sasana is still on Earth, why pay homage to Amitabha Buddha, an unreal fabricated Buddha.

Mahayana bodhisattvas are fake. A bodhisattva is an unenlightened being. So being unelightened, he can not help himself, how can he save other and the world like Guanyin? Fake, i call it fake.

A mahayana bodhisattva is a stupid being, where he refuses being enlightened to remain in samsara to help other. That idea is illogical, since the goal of a bodhisattva is striving for enlightenment in the first place, his whole effort is to be enlightened, and then the mahayana bodhisattva refuses to be enlightened. It is similar to someone who puts his whole effort into making money, and then he refuses the money, then what is his goal? He should learn mathematicals and logics before striving for other paramis of a Buddha, because he is fooling himself in another world system or universes. May he get qualification in physics to find a world system that is so illogical for himself to live and to fool ppl. Ah, maybe this Earth suits him, because ppl on Earth are so easy to be fooled by all the idea of mahayana. Maybe they are finding this planet for so long, and in the end they found a world system that fits their method. Its great isnt it? And then they drag all their gang here, Guayin, Amitabha, you may list some more stealers here that try to steal the sasana of Gotama.

Maybe there are other world system where bodhisattva and Buddha exist. But whoever they are, the bodhisattva on other planet can not be as important and smarter or helpful than the current bodhisattva on our planet.

Like a patient in a hospital hoping for a doctor on another hospital. Yes, there are doctors in other hospital, but they are not as helpful as the doctor in front of you, if they get the same qualification. All the idea of other world, other universe are just empty words to fake enlightenment. Enlightenment is right here right now, all the other place other time is the Mara illusion.

If Metteyya, our foremost being, is incapable of hearing the world to help ppl, then surely some unenlightened beings on another planets can not do it, in the hopeless situation of mahayana believers.

There is something called kamma. If Gotama can not help someone who is not kammic related to him, then surely on another planet, it is hopeless.
Hello, hello, I must agree with what you said. Yes, I find this Kuan yin business rather difficult to stomach.
Why are these people not aware of the falsehood and lies? You cannot fabricate a diety and dress it up and
then try to pass it off a Goddess who is also enlightened as Buddha in fact on par with Buddha if I may say so.
So we are all expected to burn joss sticks pray to Kuan Yin for good health and all our worldly desires.
I find this is rather a strong undiluted form of stupidity to put it in a mild way. Having a story that the son of
God was nailed to a tree so that your sins could be forgiven is bad enough now we have this Kuan Yin trying
elbow in onto the scene of Buddhism. All temples that have Kuan Yin together with Buddha's statute are just
money making machines. Rich people gave lots of their money to build and support this form of pagan
worship.
There is no need to argue if you have understood Buddhism you will see the stupidity so clearly. Did
Buddha said there is a certain goddess you should worship? No? Then?
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Guanyin

Post by Coëmgenu »

polaris wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:44 pm Hello, hello, I must agree with what you said. Yes, I find this Kuan yin business rather difficult to stomach.
Why are these people not aware of the falsehood and lies? You cannot fabricate a diety and dress it up and
then try to pass it off a Goddess who is also enlightened as Buddha in fact on par with Buddha if I may say so.
Don't tell lies. Avalokiteshvara is a non-retrograding bodhisatva, not a buddha. He is far beneath a buddha.
Then, the monks sang this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and rots.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.

(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
polaris
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Re: Guanyin

Post by polaris »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:50 pm
polaris wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:44 pm Hello, hello, I must agree with what you said. Yes, I find this Kuan yin business rather difficult to stomach.
Why are these people not aware of the falsehood and lies? You cannot fabricate a diety and dress it up and
then try to pass it off a Goddess who is also enlightened as Buddha in fact on par with Buddha if I may say so.
Don't tell lies. Avalokiteshvara is a non-retrograding bodhisatva, not a buddha. He is far beneath a buddha.
So, what is all this about, Kuan Yin the sister of Buddha now or what? Just tell me more about Kuan Yin if you can how she became a Goddess.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Guanyin

Post by Coëmgenu »

polaris wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:53 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:50 pm
polaris wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:44 pm Hello, hello, I must agree with what you said. Yes, I find this Kuan yin business rather difficult to stomach.
Why are these people not aware of the falsehood and lies? You cannot fabricate a diety and dress it up and
then try to pass it off a Goddess who is also enlightened as Buddha in fact on par with Buddha if I may say so.
Don't tell lies. It's very bad for you. Avalokiteshvara is a non-retrograding bodhisatva, not a buddha. He is far beneath a buddha.

If you don't know what you are talking about, it might be better to keep your mouth shut and avoid proliferating lies on web forums.
So, what is all this about, Kuan Yin the sister of Buddha now or what? Just tell me more about Kuan Yin if you can how she became a Goddess.
I'd rather you just didn't tell lies instead.
Then, the monks sang this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and rots.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.

(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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SDC
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Re: Guanyin

Post by SDC »

Moderator Note: Personal attacks have been removed from previous posts.

:focus:
"As fruits fall from the tree, so people too, both young and old, fall when this body breaks." - Raṭṭhapāla (MN 82)
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Aloka
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Re: Guanyin

Post by Aloka »

.
This is an excerpt from "A Listening Heart" - a dhamma reflection by Ajahn Amaro on the Amaravati Monastery website, (which he begins by talking about the coronavirus pandemic):


Listening to the Sounds of the World

One significant aspect of compassion is expressed in the figure of Guan Shi Yin Bodhisattva, who comes to us from the Northern Buddhist tradition. Guan Yin is the Chinese name for this great spiritual entity – the Sanskrit is Avalokiteshvāra and the Tibetan is Chenrezig – all these names have the same meaning: ‘The one who listens to the sounds of the world’. To me that is an extremely meaningful name for a being who is the embodiment of compassion, because it doesn’t mean that he or she is necessarily out there doing anything. The primary role of compassion, its primordial attribute, is not getting out there and ‘doing’. Its primary attribute is listening. The quality of empathetic engagement is actualized through the practice of listening. We need to train the heart to listen.

In Pali there are a number of words for ‘compassion’: ‘karuṇā’ has been mentioned already; the Pali Text Society Dictionary tells us that ‘dayā’ means ‘sympathy, compassion, kindness’; there is also the word ‘anukampā’, translated as ‘compassion, pity, mercy’, while the verb related to it, ‘anukampati’, means ‘to have pity on, to commiserate, to sympathize with’; an ‘anukampin’ describes one who is ‘full of solicitude for the welfare of’ others.

Among these the word ‘anukampati’ has a very interesting and meaningful origin: ‘anu’ (‘along with’) + ‘kampati’; the latter word means ‘to vibrate, shake, tremble or waver’. It thus has the sense of ‘resonating’ as in ‘empathizing’, which seems very apposite in understanding how best to relate to the sufferings of all beings.

In the act of listening our eardrums vibrate, they resonate precisely according to the oscillations of the air, as received by the ear, conditioning the perception of sound. In the attitude of anukampā, the heart listens and resonates empathetically with the feelings of others, regardless of how painful those feelings might be, as naturally and impartially as the vibrations of the eardrum. Thus, when we think of the nature of compassion from the Buddhist point of view, it is closer to ‘empathy’ rather than ‘suffering with’. The heart attunes to the feelings of suffering but is not limited, burdened or stressed on account of that.

More at the link....

https://www.amaravati.org/a-listening-heart/

:anjali:
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zerotime
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Re: Guanyin

Post by zerotime »

chownah wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 5:58 am I think this should be in the Connections to Other Paths subforum.....unless guanyin is mentioned in the pali tipitaka.
chownah
this would be the real interesting thing. I believe it can be really probable, although it seems nobody has investigated this issue.

I believe there are two sides of this phenomena starting from different views:

- One is focused in the own religious dimension: explaining the spreading of Avalokiteshvara/Guanyin from and inside the Buddhist world. The problem is when this focus seems to exclude any investigation of a possible (and very probable) previous dimension of the phenomena before the arrival of Buddhism. In such line, one can read in "Kuan-yin: The Chinese Transformation of Avalokiteshvara", Chun-fang Yu:

"In the case of Chinese Buddhism, according the scholar Eric Zürcher, the chinese people became attracted to Kuan-yin not because she bore any resemblance to any indigenous deity, but precisely because none of them was like her. Once Kuan-yin was accepted, however, the bodhisattva, just like Buddhism in general, was perceived and understood in a way molded by Chinese culture. "


the problem is when it sounds quite difficult to accept. It start without any possibility or intention to open an investigation of indigenous sources previous to Buddhism. Despite the patterns of adoption and replacement of local deities by new ones of a new great religion, it is the same in the spreading of any great religion of the world: the old local deities become in a second line with new names and characteriozations so the popular devotion can be redirected inside the new shared religion.

At the other side, it is fact that one can find how these popular characteristics for the devotion to Guan Yin were already present in previous religions of the whole world towards similiar deities. And this can be the other side to look to this phenomena: the different religious characterization in all the world for the same benevolent being, who is endowed with too much concidences in her attributes and relation with human beings. Even in her ways to appear in front them; too much concidence.

In this side, we should talk about a deva of female appearance, who is worried by humans beings and the Earth. She is strongly connected with Nature and frequently appearing close to streams, waters, forests and mountains. One can wonder if this universal and important deva can be present in the Canon Pali in some place. I suppose it can be. Although in the Theravada world there is no cult to devas, and therefore it is not strange it could appear like the rest of devas. And in the popular side of devotion, we check how that absence was occupied by the Mahayana Guan yin. And then Avalokitesvara was worshipped as the guardian deity of the country by the Ceylonese rulers since the fifteenth century and the Javanese kings in the pre-Islamic thirteenth to fifteenth centuries

Why those rulers allow that?. One should accept the importance of that universal space for the popular devotion towards that being, which is composed by both apparitions and prayings. Even million Muslims they should go in pilgrimage every year to Christian places because they lack of that space:

https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/pr ... er/4812020
http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Millions ... 28577.html

In Hinduism, this deva has its general characterization in the general depiction of a Devi with different nature subdivisions. In Mahayana, there is Guan Yin which become a female characterization from a Buddha disciple. In Christianism, there is the Virgin Mary which become a characterization from the mother of Jesus.

I know the following example should be placed in the land of the doubt, although it can be interesting the case of the famous episode of Fatima, in Portugal. Because this is not so old. This is a drawing attributed by some sources to the first description of the children who saw that being:

Image

according those versions, the later characterization like a catholic Virgin Mary and related dialogues were a later adaptation by the religious authorities. The example is not to give or deny credibility. It is only to reflect in that universal pattern to digest the phenomena with the apparition of this being. In fact this could be the same benevolent deva because is too much coincident in spiritual attributes, concerns and places. Although should carry these processes of adoption and assimilation to be shared inside the different religions.

It would be interesting to know if there is some deva inside the Canon Pali who can fit in these attributes.
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zerotime
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Re: Guanyin

Post by zerotime »

just to add an example enough contradictory with what Zürcher and others writes:

"The Mother Queen of the West was in Former Han times an ancient Chinese goddess belonging to the popular religion, who was believed to live on top of a high mountain outside the western boundaries of China, whence she sent calamities to punish sins against Heaven. She seems to have been an extremely ancient divinity, dating perhaps from pre-historic ages, at which time she had possibly been a malevolent being. As a result of ancient Chinese mythology working upon her name, she developed into a mother goddess who was kindly disposed to mankind, and who offered immortality to her devotees."
- "An Ancient Chinese Mystery Cult", Homer H. Dubs. The Harvard Theological Review. Vol. 35, No. 4 (Oct., 1942), pp. 221-24


I ignore why modern scholars who writes about the origins of devotion to Guan Yin they prefer to ignore those previous times to the presence of Buddhism and Taoism in China
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