why dorje shugden is hated?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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confusedlayman
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why dorje shugden is hated?

Post by confusedlayman »

Tsem rinpoche is a good monk with compassion.. his compassion may be because of training in his tradition. but why Dorje Shugden is banned or avioded?

I think im not breaking rules in forum ...
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Coëmgenu
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Re: why dorje shugden is hated?

Post by Coëmgenu »

You might want to be a lot more careful about who you want to call "good," "compassionate," and whose training you want to laud. Tsem Tulku is a guru yoga enthusiast with an iron first. Here's two very telling posts taken from Tsem Tulku's twitter feed. The first is a photo from it, and the second was one of his deleted twitter rants. Remind anyone of a certain president?
Tsembeingweird2.jpeg
Tsembeingweird2.jpeg (8.22 KiB) Viewed 1652 times
Criticize ur guru all you want, let's 'compare' where u are in a few years and where your guru is. Results count! The end.

When u criticize ur teacher, u are criticizing all those who follow him & all those who 'enthroned' him also

By choosing ur lover over ur teacher is a mistake, becos eventually u will seperate from ur lover & u lost ur teacher too

Some treat their lovers who are full of wrong views, ego, laziness better than their gurus and take their side against their guru!

Some criticize their guru after years of love, care, teachings following the negative examples of some other 'students'. Wake up

All teachers have their devadattas and Judas, forgive them, continue to grow & reach those who want to change. LOL
(A Deleted Gem from Tsem)

With regard to Shugden, the "angry god" that the "angry lama" worships, basically, a while ago, there was a sectarian gelug-supremacy movement in Buddhism that was being weird to other sects in Tibet. Eventually, the Dalai Lama condemned the protector deity associated with these gelug supremacist movements -- ending their mainstream acceptance in Tibet and helping along the ecumenical movement.

Nowadays, there are several Shugden cults being funded by the Chinese government who, for their own reasons, still insist that the His Holiness is a terrorist despite him being in favour of the Tibetans living peaceably under Chinese rule. His office now mostly just advocates for the civil rights of Tibetans living under the boot of the Chinese regime and raises awareness concerning disappeared Tibetans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorje_Shugden
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:52 am, edited 4 times in total.
Then, the monks sang this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and rots.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.

(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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SDC
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Re: why dorje shugden is hated?

Post by SDC »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:36 pm Tsem rinpoche is a good monk with compassion.. his compassion may be because of training in his tradition. but why Dorje Shugden is banned or avioded?

I think im not breaking rules in forum ...
It wouldn't be against the ToS to talk about it, but you will have to relate it back to Theravada in some way in order for this thread to remain open. I'm sure you could speak about it on DWE otherwise, unless for some reason it is banned over there too.
"As fruits fall from the tree, so people too, both young and old, fall when this body breaks." - Raṭṭhapāla (MN 82)
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confusedlayman
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Re: why dorje shugden is hated?

Post by confusedlayman »

SDC wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:36 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:36 pm Tsem rinpoche is a good monk with compassion.. his compassion may be because of training in his tradition. but why Dorje Shugden is banned or avioded?

I think im not breaking rules in forum ...
It wouldn't be against the ToS to talk about it, but you will have to relate it back to Theravada in some way in order for this thread to remain open. I'm sure you could speak about it on DWE otherwise, unless for some reason it is banned over there too.
Is it related to theraveda ?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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confusedlayman
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Re: why dorje shugden is hated?

Post by confusedlayman »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:55 pm Basically, a while ago, there was a sectarian gelug-supremacy movement in Buddhism that was being weird to other sects in Tibet. Eventually, the Dalai Lama condemned the protector deity associated with these gelug supremacist movements -- ending their mainstream acceptance in Tibet and helping along the ecumenical movement.

Nowadays, there are several Shugden cults being funded by the Chinese government who, for their own reasons, still insist that the His Holiness is a terrorist despite him being in favour of the Tibetans living peaceably under Chinese rule. His office now mostly just advocates for the civil rights of Tibetans living under the boot of the Chinese regime and raises awareness concerning disappeared Tibetans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorje_Shugden
chinese create schism,?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: why dorje shugden is hated?

Post by SDC »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:28 pm Is it related to theraveda ?
Since you started the thread it is up to you to show whether or not it is...or you could ask the members. Either way the point of this section is to connect other paths to Theravada.
"As fruits fall from the tree, so people too, both young and old, fall when this body breaks." - Raṭṭhapāla (MN 82)
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Re: why dorje shugden is hated?

Post by Aloka »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:36 pm Tsem rinpoche is a good monk with compassion.. his compassion may be because of training in his tradition. but why Dorje Shugden is banned or avioded?

I think im not breaking rules in forum ...
The Dalai Lama says Shugden is an evil spirit:
https://www.dalailama.com/messages/dolg ... ess-advice

Its got nothing to do with Theravada, its a Tibetan Buddhist issue. ...and Tsem Tulku is also a very controversial figure.
You should ask one of the experienced Vajrayana practitioners at Dharma Wheel forum about it all (Malcolm perhaps?) if you're desperate for information.

I'm not willing to discuss it any further myself - and I'd strongly suggest you just let it go and move on, because getting involved with all that stuff is a time waster.

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Re: why dorje shugden is hated?

Post by mikenz66 »

There is a historical analysis here, which may be of interest:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorje_Shugden_controversy
However, as others have said, it's difficult to see how conflicts within Tibetan Buddhist sects would have any particular relevance to the subject matter of this Forum.

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Re: why dorje shugden is hated?

Post by DNS »

Discussion about this has always been banned at DW-Mahayana. From their terms of service:
SHUGDEN/DOLGYAL – Dharma Wheel stands firmly against the promotion and propagation of Shugden/Dolgyal. As such ALL discussion of anything related to Shugden/Dolgyal, including practices and related material, as well as criticism, are strictly prohibited on Dharma Wheel. The discussion of or linking to material from groups and individuals that promote them, such as Geshe Kelsang Gyato's New Kadampa Tradition or Tsem Tulku Rinpoche's (deceased) Kechara will be removed. This zero tolerance policy against all discussion is premised on the principle that any bandwidth given to the subject, even criticism, is too much. Dharma Wheel follows the guidance of His Holiness the Dalai Lama on this subject, and all the heads of the Tibetan traditions condemn such practices due to their extremely divisive nature and the negative effects to a person's well-being. The common advice is to ignore them instead of nursing the bad energy by attention. Further information can be found here: http://dalailama.com/messages/dolgyal-shugden or http://shugdeninfo.com.
All of the moderators who have worked over there have been in unanimous agreement about not allowing any discussion about this and since they know more about Mahayana doctrines and practice than I do, I have always deferred and accepted their decision on this. At this forum, we discuss the Dhamma of Theravada and early Buddhism, so this issue appears to have no connection to this forum either.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: why dorje shugden is hated?

Post by Coëmgenu »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:29 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:55 pm Basically, a while ago, there was a sectarian gelug-supremacy movement in Buddhism that was being weird to other sects in Tibet. Eventually, the Dalai Lama condemned the protector deity associated with these gelug supremacist movements -- ending their mainstream acceptance in Tibet and helping along the ecumenical movement.

Nowadays, there are several Shugden cults being funded by the Chinese government who, for their own reasons, still insist that the His Holiness is a terrorist despite him being in favour of the Tibetans living peaceably under Chinese rule. His office now mostly just advocates for the civil rights of Tibetans living under the boot of the Chinese regime and raises awareness concerning disappeared Tibetans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorje_Shugden
chinese create schism,?
They fund schismatics. Close enough.

The only way I can imagine the topic going back on-topic is discussing the interference of the Chinese government in Chinese saṁghas, but that isn't about Shugden in particular.
Then, the monks sang this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and rots.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.

(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
simsapa
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Re: why dorje shugden is hated?

Post by simsapa »

is a good monk with compassion
Be careful. Observe someone carefully before selecting them as a teacher. Have you met this monk? Have you seen them interact with others under stress and in times of adversity? If not, what is the basis for your opinion?

Be careful about making commitments in other traditions. Make sure you understand thoroughly what those commitments mean. Don't settle for the lack of an explanation.
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Aloka
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Re: why dorje shugden is hated?

Post by Aloka »

simsapa wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:43 am
is a good monk with compassion
Be careful. Observe someone carefully before selecting them as a teacher. Have you met this monk? Have you seen them interact with others under stress and in times of adversity? If not, what is the basis for your opinion?

Be careful about making commitments in other traditions. Make sure you understand thoroughly what those commitments mean. Don't settle for the lack of an explanation.

:goodpost:


It seems that Tsem Tulku died last September. Perhaps something connected to the fact that he became hugely overweight, which can't have been good for his health.

https://www.kechara.com/news/parinirvan ... -rinpoche/


:anjali:
.
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Re: why dorje shugden is hated?

Post by confusedlayman »

Aloka wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:52 am
simsapa wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:43 am
is a good monk with compassion
Be careful. Observe someone carefully before selecting them as a teacher. Have you met this monk? Have you seen them interact with others under stress and in times of adversity? If not, what is the basis for your opinion?

Be careful about making commitments in other traditions. Make sure you understand thoroughly what those commitments mean. Don't settle for the lack of an explanation.

:goodpost:


It seems that Tsem Tulku died last September. Perhaps something connected to the fact that he became hugely overweight, which can't have been good for his health.

https://www.kechara.com/news/parinirvan ... -rinpoche/


:anjali:
.
yes
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confusedlayman
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Re: why dorje shugden is hated?

Post by confusedlayman »

simsapa wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:43 am
is a good monk with compassion
Be careful. Observe someone carefully before selecting them as a teacher. Have you met this monk? Have you seen them interact with others under stress and in times of adversity? If not, what is the basis for your opinion?

Be careful about making commitments in other traditions. Make sure you understand thoroughly what those commitments mean. Don't settle for the lack of an explanation.
he has compassion seed and i never met him
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: why dorje shugden is hated?

Post by Aloka »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:31 am he has compassion seed and i never met him
So have lots of other people you haven't met around the world.

Meanwhile, perhaps you could focus on practising it yourself:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el006.html


:anjali:

.
Last edited by Aloka on Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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