Hypocrisy or strategy?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
binocular
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Re: Hypocrisy or strategy?

Post by binocular »

Sam Vara wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 6:28 pmPeople not living up to standards that they subscribe to or even advocate are not a reason for failing to take those standards seriously. Their behaviour has no bearing on the truth or efficacy or utility of those standards.
Sure.
Of course, a person's tendency to believe is conditioned. Some people are gullible and will accept anything, whereas others are suspicious and see vices everywhere. Those with love will tend to see others as experiencing honest lapses, those with hate will tend to see them as hypocrites paying lip service.
I'm going to take religious instructions seriously only after I meet a religious person who takes those instructions seriously, but who isn't a sucker and a loser. I need to see that it is actually possible to live a semi-decent life while taking religious instructions seriously, at face value.
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Re: Hypocrisy or strategy?

Post by Bundokji »

binocular wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:28 am
Bundokji wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 6:57 pmIt could be more of an honest failing than a deliberate strategy.
Why do you think that? Could you explain?
Most religious people would treat religion as "transcendental" hence the lack of consistency is often interpreted due to their own failings rather than something wrong with the teachings. The funny thing is that the theories offered by religions are meant to provide believers with a coherent world view, playing on their desire to have a consistent worldview (hence claiming to fill some gaps in their worldview).

If you take the desire for consistency as a part of the structure of the mind that seeks theories to explain the complexity of the world, then the lack of consistency becomes a natural outcome, leading to endless negotiation between the believer and his future self by either trying harder next time, or giving up on the belief system and replacing it with another belief system where consistency can be finally achieved.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Hypocrisy or strategy?

Post by Sam Vara »

binocular wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:32 am I'm going to take religious instructions seriously only after I meet a religious person who takes those instructions seriously, but who isn't a sucker and a loser. I need to see that it is actually possible to live a semi-decent life while taking religious instructions seriously, at face value.
Yes, everyone will have different criteria. Luckily for me, "religious instructions" mainly consisted of trying to keep the five precepts and sitting quietly once per day. I know quite a lot of people who can do that.

"His yoke is easy and his burden is light".
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Re: Hypocrisy or strategy?

Post by SteRo »

binocular wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:32 am I'm going to take religious instructions seriously only after I meet a religious person who takes those instructions seriously, but who isn't a sucker and a loser.
Problem is that wherever you go every person you may meet is just mirrored self. The only way out is to meet Buddha.
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Pondera
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Re: Hypocrisy or strategy?

Post by Pondera »

SteRo wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 3:27 am
Sam Vara wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:59 am
SteRo wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 8:34 am
One should not care about the virtues of others at all because that only entails speculation and through comparing 'they'/'we' or 'she,he/me' the conceit 'I am' will be perpetuated interminably.
There is another text-supported view that conceit can be useful on the path. See, for example, AN 4.159:
In the beginning of the path it is even necessary- But one does not have to cultivate it because ignorance is inherent in life. If however it is not seen and undermined after initial accumulations the path will be obstructed.
In your sphere of experience, which part of the path are you on, SteRo?
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Pondera
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Re: Hypocrisy or strategy?

Post by Pondera »

SteRo wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:57 am
binocular wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:32 am I'm going to take religious instructions seriously only after I meet a religious person who takes those instructions seriously, but who isn't a sucker and a loser.
Problem is that wherever you go every person you may meet is just mirrored self. The only way out is to meet Buddha.
Obviously wrong. The Buddha also spoke of the Pratyekabuddha.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: Hypocrisy or strategy?

Post by SteRo »

Pondera wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:04 am
SteRo wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:57 am
binocular wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:32 am I'm going to take religious instructions seriously only after I meet a religious person who takes those instructions seriously, but who isn't a sucker and a loser.
Problem is that wherever you go every person you may meet is just mirrored self. The only way out is to meet Buddha.
Obviously wrong. The Buddha also spoke of the Pratyekabuddha.
'Buddha' is only a metaphor. (Obviously it is necessary to speak this way to those that grasp concepts as realities.)
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Re: Hypocrisy or strategy?

Post by SteRo »

Pondera wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:03 am
SteRo wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 3:27 am
Sam Vara wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:59 am

There is another text-supported view that conceit can be useful on the path. See, for example, AN 4.159:
In the beginning of the path it is even necessary- But one does not have to cultivate it because ignorance is inherent in life. If however it is not seen and undermined after initial accumulations the path will be obstructed.
In your sphere of experience, which part of the path are you on, SteRo?
This sphere of experience is the path. There is no path apart from this sphere of experience. There is no 'you' on a path different from 'you' because there is no path independent of illusory experience.
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Pondera
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Re: Hypocrisy or strategy?

Post by Pondera »

Dear lord. You’re not well are you?

I can’t interpret your nonsense. I have to go to bed.

The path is the eightfold path - the noble one. Either you are on it or you are not. You are quite clearly not. You won’t even admit the existence of it in any way other than metaphor.

“Buddha” is a term applied to a man who may come around one time in an eon. And there is much more to say about what that term means and implies.

Needless to say that the prayetkabuddha is also a strict term with a strict definition.

All things that you fail to acknowledge inside your bubble of ignorance and conceit.

I refuse to waste anymore of my time on the subject of SteRo for tonight.

Namaste

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Re: Hypocrisy or strategy?

Post by SteRo »

Pondera wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:53 am I can’t interpret your nonsense.
...
All things that you fail to acknowledge inside your bubble of ignorance and conceit.
One man's nonsense might be another man's enlightenment. How? Word's are empty and in one "bubble of ignorance and conceit" these might cause appearance of nonsense while in another "bubble of ignorance and conceit" these might cause appearance of the door to liberation.

What you call " bubble of ignorance and conceit" has been called "sphere of experience".

It's funny that you are seeking conversation again and again although it's been shown again and again that the meaning appearing in your sphere of experience does not match the meaning expressed.

There is no mind-to-mind transmission via forum posts, apologies for that. And even if there were it would be impossible when two "bubbles of ignorance and conceit" belong to different lineages. :shrug:
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Re: Hypocrisy or strategy?

Post by Pondera »

SteRo wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:59 pm
Pondera wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:53 am I can’t interpret your nonsense.
...
All things that you fail to acknowledge inside your bubble of ignorance and conceit.
One man's nonsense might be another man's enlightenment. How? Word's are empty and in one "bubble of ignorance and conceit" these might cause appearance of nonsense while in another "bubble of ignorance and conceit" these might cause appearance of the door to liberation.

What you call " bubble of ignorance and conceit" has been called "sphere of experience".

It's funny that you are seeking conversation again and again although it's been shown again and again that the meaning appearing in your sphere of experience does not match the meaning expressed.

There is no mind-to-mind transmission via forum posts, apologies for that. And even if there were it would be impossible when two "bubbles of ignorance and conceit" belong to different lineages. :shrug:
I get your point. However, you intentionally speak in extremely vague terms which opens your statements up to a wide range of interpretation.

Are you well versed in emptiness? Sure. I’ve read a lot of Prajnaparamita and you speak in terms of emptiness.

Would I trust you to right a manual on how to construct my IKEA furniture. Absolutely not. They’re already simplified. You would make them impossible to follow. Tell me if you think you could write a manual on how to build anything with actual utility or function? Be honest. Do you think you could?

I don’t.

If you are here to convey emptiness, fine. Keep in mind that such an intention is fundamentally Mahayana tradition. For people who are looking for down to earth advice and something to give them an actual grasp on the advanced, intricate, and vast amount of dhamma handed down by the Buddha, you are like a mosquito. Your verbiage is an irritant.

You have no grasp of reality. And I mean that as both a compliment on your handling of emptiness as well as an insult to your understanding, belief, and interpretation of (for example) the 4NT’s; the N8FP; and transcendental DO.

Well done in the Prajnaparamita department. Go back to Mahayana forum and show off for them. I’m sure they’ll love it. Come here? Tell me “Buddha is an illusion”? - there is only relative truth to 4NT’s as all things are empty of inherent reality? Tell me THAT???

I reply, “Bugger off. You’re a nuisance.”

Sorry. Just being honest.

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Re: Hypocrisy or strategy?

Post by SteRo »

Pondera wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:47 am I reply, “Bugger off. You’re a nuisance.”
Why don't you simply ignore my posts? Just stop seeking conversation.
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binocular
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Re: Hypocrisy or strategy?

Post by binocular »

Bundokji wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:11 pm
binocular wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:28 am
Bundokji wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 6:57 pmIt could be more of an honest failing than a deliberate strategy.
Why do you think that? Could you explain?
Most religious people would treat religion as "transcendental" hence the lack of consistency is often interpreted due to their own failings rather than something wrong with the teachings.
I'm not sure we're on the same page.
The funny thing is that the theories offered by religions are meant to provide believers with a coherent world view, playing on their desire to have a consistent worldview (hence claiming to fill some gaps in their worldview).

I'm talking about the possibility that the whole point of religion/spirituality is to only fake that one takes it seriously, while not even remotely taking it seriously (thus, inconsistency etc. of doctrine isn't an issue). Such an explanation fits the model of religion/spirituality as yet another avenue for the evolutionary struggle for survival.
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Pondera
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Re: Hypocrisy or strategy?

Post by Pondera »

SteRo wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:56 am
Pondera wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:47 am I reply, “Bugger off. You’re a nuisance.”
Why don't you simply ignore my posts? Just stop seeking conversation.
Because you’re undermining the dhamma in the same way that Mahayana likes to call all other lineages a “lesser vehicle”.

When you first came here, you were touting your knowledge of emptiness as it applied to MN 121 and 122. I called your bullshyte on that because when someone is full of bullshyte they should be called on it.

I did it again when you failed to realize that the four rupa jhanas are the definition of right concentration.

At this stage, you’ve gone completely off the deep end; everything is a metaphor; and a vaguely defined illusion with only relative truth ... etcetera etcetera

Let me put it this way. Do you venerate the Buddha? If you do then what importance do you put on the title “Buddha”?

From your earlier post, it appears that you put no importance on the title that Gautama was given for his efforts. And that bothers me and I think it’s important to call you on your bullshyte as often as is possible and needed.

Other people are reading the nonsense coming out of your mouth. Someone has to stand up for the factual elements of the dhamma (the 4NT’s; the N8FP; transcendental DO; etcetera). I’m not going to let you use your dialectics to sweep away everything that is important to a Theravada follower - especially on a Theravada website.

Why don’t I ignore your posts? Why don’t you bugger off to a Mahayana community?

What is so important about Theravada followers that you need to espouse Nagarjuna here? And what surprises you about the fact that people are pushing back against your mindless “emptiness sickness”?

It’s a Theravada discussion forum ... :shrug: You’re undermining the original teachings of the Buddha. You’re a nuisance. And I will continue to call you out on your empty; postmodern diatribes.
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Bundokji
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Re: Hypocrisy or strategy?

Post by Bundokji »

binocular wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:42 pm I'm talking about the possibility that the whole point of religion/spirituality is to only fake that one takes it seriously, while not even remotely taking it seriously (thus, inconsistency etc. of doctrine isn't an issue). Such an explanation fits the model of religion/spirituality as yet another avenue for the evolutionary struggle for survival.
Failing to live up to religious belief or standards does not necessarily mean inconsistency or hypocrisy by the religious. It can mean that believing in something does not automatically translate into the ability to apply it all the time. For example, one can hold the belief that lying or infidelity are bad, and when engaging in conversations with others, he/she might preach those beliefs. However, that does not guarantee that they wont lie or betray. One interpretation, among other things, is that our mind is structured in a way that allows for both phenomena to take place. It is also quite possible that the whole issue of consistency arose due to the fact that our nature allow for both believing and acting otherwise.

Its worth noting that the struggle for survival is equally utilized by evolutionary explanations as well as religious explanations. For example, seeking the "deathless" in different forms and contexts speaks to our struggle to survive. Another thing both evolutionary theories and religions have in common is that both provide us with explanations about our situation and the aim of our existence (or lack of). Whether these explanations take the form of annihilationist or eternalist language does not make a big difference as long as they provides basis to justify wide variety of actions and rituals.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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