Ajo, Amatta, Nibbāna & Vaya

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
auto
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Re: Ajo, Amatta, Nibbāna & Vaya

Post by auto »

ToVincent wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:25 pm
auto wrote:.

Originally, I did not open this thread in "connection to other paths".
So, if you want to talk about "Taoist yoga", please feel free to open another thread.
Thank you.
i'm not discussing Taoist Yoga, the information is for context purposes.
ToVincent wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:27 pm The point in the OP, is that there is an unborn both in the suttas and in the Veda.
unborn.

Prenatal?
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Re: Ajāta, Amatta, Nibbāna & Vaya

Post by ToVincent »

auto wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:44 pm
ToVincent wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:25 pm
auto wrote:.

Originally, I did not open this thread in "connection to other paths".
So, if you want to talk about "Taoist yoga", please feel free to open another thread.
Thank you.
i'm not discussing Taoist Yoga, the information is for context purposes.
ToVincent wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:27 pm The point in the OP, is that there is an unborn both in the suttas and in the Veda.
unborn.

Prenatal?
it's not prenatal — it's unproduced.


___________

TO THE MODERATOR:

I REALLY DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY THIS THREAD HAS BEEN TAKEN TO "CONNECTION TO OTHER PATHS"
This was not my original choice.
?!?!?
Explain point by point, please.
Thank you.

.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
Those who desire good are few, and those who desire evil are many.
Buddha
(And you just can't imagine how much goodness, those who desire evil, are ready to display - ToVincent).
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Ajo, Amatta, Nibbāna & Vaya

Post by Ceisiwr »

AND I REALLY DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY THIS THREAD HAS BEEN TAKEN TO "CONNECTION TO OTHER PATHS"
?!?!?
Explain point by point, please.
Thank you.
You originally posted in “Theravada for Beginners”. I asked for your post to be moved as you are not a Theravadin. You constantly attack Theravada. From a Theravadin POV you preach heresy. This post had nothing to do with discovering Theravada or in helping beginners to understand Theravada. Therefore, you and this post belong in “connections with other paths” for that is what you are.

:focus:
"Analysis and synthesis are praised by the wise,
liberation in the Sāsana comes from analysis and synthesis;
the purpose of the method of analysis and synthesis is the ultimate"


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Sam Vara
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Re: Ajāta, Amatta, Nibbāna & Vaya

Post by Sam Vara »

ToVincent wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:27 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:15 pm
ToVincent wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:28 am What's the problem?
No problem - just drawing attention to your tendency to advert to the Sanskrit even when presented with the Buddha's actual words in Pali. You don't actually seem to do anything with the root; it's not discussed here.
What do you mean by: "tendency to advert to the Sanskrit, even when presented with the Buddha's actual words in Pali."
I mean that in response to another question about the Buddha's lifespan you started to talk about his "following/believing in the Vedic creed"; and in an earlier thread you asked for the meaning of "attā sudanto purisassa joti" in the context of "General Theravada" - only to change the spelling to Sanskrit, and then belatedly reveal that you were interested in the meaning in the context of the Bṛhadāraṇyaka Upaniṣad. Almost as if there were an unspoken assumption behind both posts. It just looks a bit odd, that's all. I didn't mean to 'get your goat', as the saying is...
Last edited by Sam Vara on Sun Jul 26, 2020 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
auto
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Re: Ajo, Amatta, Nibbāna & Vaya

Post by auto »

ToVincent wrote: Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:27 pmThe Buddha:
One free from passion
for all sensuality
relying on nothingness, letting go of all else,
intent on the highest freedom which still has acquiescence.
He stays there free of performing - (aka "having done, what had to be done").
(NOTE: This is nibbāna when one is still alive (having vayu)
Relaying on nothingness. Does it mean ākiñcaññāyatana?

i think it refers to developing citta, when applying upekkha to nothingness.
https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/sujato wrote:If I were to apply this equanimity, so pure and bright, to the dimension of nothingness, my mind would develop accordingly.
Imañce ahaṃ upekkhaṃ evaṃ parisuddhaṃ evaṃ pariyodātaṃ ākiñcaññāyatanaṃ upasaṃhareyyaṃ, tadanudhammañca cittaṃ bhāveyyaṃ.
And this equanimity of mine, relying on that and grasping it, would remain for a very long time.Evaṃ me ayaṃ upekkhā tannissitā tadupādānā ciraṃ dīghamaddhānaṃ tiṭṭheyya.
..
But that is conditioned.’saṅkhatametan’ti.
prelude to nibbana and nibbana.
https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/sujato wrote:They neither make a choice nor form an intention to continue existence or to end existence.So neva taṃ abhisaṅkharoti, na abhisañcetayati bhavāya vā vibhavāya vā.
Because of this, they don’t grasp at anything in the world.So anabhisaṅkharonto anabhisañcetayanto bhavāya vā vibhavāya vā na kiñci loke upādiyati,
Not grasping, they’re not anxious. Not being anxious, they personally become extinguished.anupādiyaṃ na paritassati, aparitassaṃ paccattaṃyeva parinibbāyati.

They understand: ‘Rebirth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is no return to any state of existence.’‘Khīṇā jāti, vusitaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, kataṃ karaṇīyaṃ, nāparaṃ itthattāyā’ti pajānāti.
mn 106 supports,
https://suttacentral.net/mn106/en/sujato wrote:Why don’t I meditate with an abundant, expansive heart, having mastered the world and stabilized the mind?Yannūnāhaṃ vipulena mahaggatena cetasā vihareyyaṃ abhibhuyya lokaṃ adhiṭṭhāya manasā.
Then I will have no more bad, unskillful qualities such as desire, ill will, and aggression.Vipulena hi me mahaggatena cetasā viharato abhibhuyya lokaṃ adhiṭṭhāya manasā ye pāpakā akusalā mānasā abhijjhāpi byāpādāpi sārambhāpi te na bhavissanti.

And by giving them up my mind, no longer limited, will become limitless and well developed.’Tesaṃ pahānā aparittañca me cittaṃ bhavissati appamāṇaṃ subhāvitan’ti.
..
When their body breaks up, after death, it’s possible that the consciousness headed that way will be reborn in the imperturbable.Ṭhānametaṃ vijjati yaṃ taṃsaṃvattanikaṃ viññāṇaṃ assa āneñjūpagaṃ.
ToVincent wrote: Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:27 pmThe Buddha:
As a flame overthrown by the force of the wind
goes to an end
that cannot be named,
so the sage freed from nāma and khāya (a.k.a. vaya),
goes to an end
that cannot be classified.
(NOTE: This is nibbāna, when there is no vayu any longer).
that what cannot be named is āneñja. It refer to the āyatana. I think you use for vayu different meaning, exactly also what is said in the dictonary
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/v/vaya/ wrote:PTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary
Vaya,2 [Sk.vyaya,vi+i; occasionally as vyaya in Pāli as well] 1.loss,want,expense (opp.āya)

and
PTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary

Vaya,1 (& vayo) (nt.) [Vedic vayas vitality,age; to be distinguished from another vayas meaning “fowl.
so i can't really agree here. * I am going with the meaning where vayu is vitality, lifeforce.
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Re: Ajāta, Amatta, Nibbāna & Vaya

Post by ToVincent »

Sam Vara wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 4:24 pm
ToVincent wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:27 pm What do you mean by: "tendency to advert to the Sanskrit, even when presented with the Buddha's actual words in Pali."
I mean that in response to another question about the Buddha's lifespan you started to talk about his "following/believing in the Vedic creed"; and in an earlier thread you asked for the meaning of "attā sudanto purisassa joti" in the context of "General Theravada" - only to change the spelling to Sanskrit, and then belatedly reveal that you were interested in the meaning in the context of the Bṛhadāraṇyaka Upaniṣad. Almost as if there were an unspoken assumption behind both posts. It just looks a bit odd, that's all. I didn't mean to 'get your goat', as the saying is...
Don't get involved with the other threads. You're not even able to make sense with this one; with your ajo as a he-goat, and your disparaging remarks on top of it.
You see a he-goat everywhere, it seems.

What is this bedeviled nonsense all about?

________

TO MODERATOR:
I REALLY DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY THIS THREAD HAS BEEN TAKEN TO "CONNECTION TO OTHER PATHS"
?!?!?
Explain point by point, please.
Thank you.
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
Those who desire good are few, and those who desire evil are many.
Buddha
(And you just can't imagine how much goodness, those who desire evil, are ready to display - ToVincent).
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Sam Vara
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Re: Ajāta, Amatta, Nibbāna & Vaya

Post by Sam Vara »

ToVincent wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 5:23 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 4:24 pm
ToVincent wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:27 pm What do you mean by: "tendency to advert to the Sanskrit, even when presented with the Buddha's actual words in Pali."
I mean that in response to another question about the Buddha's lifespan you started to talk about his "following/believing in the Vedic creed"; and in an earlier thread you asked for the meaning of "attā sudanto purisassa joti" in the context of "General Theravada" - only to change the spelling to Sanskrit, and then belatedly reveal that you were interested in the meaning in the context of the Bṛhadāraṇyaka Upaniṣad. Almost as if there were an unspoken assumption behind both posts. It just looks a bit odd, that's all. I didn't mean to 'get your goat', as the saying is...
Don't get involved with the other threads.
I'll refer to the threads I choose, thanks. I've only cited the ones I was involved in, but the Sanskrit/Upanishad issue is a good deal wider.
You're not even able to make sense with this one;
I'm able to spot a trend, though, which I have restricted my comments to.
You see a he-goat everywhere, it seems.
A quick search of my posting history shows my caprophilic tendencies are only manifested on this thread.
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Re: Ajāta, Amatta, Nibbāna & Vaya

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings
ToVincent wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 5:23 pm TO MODERATOR:
I REALLY DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY THIS THREAD HAS BEEN TAKEN TO "CONNECTION TO OTHER PATHS"
?!?!?
Explain point by point, please.
Thank you.
Because Discovering Theravada is a section for beginners to ask questions... not for others to raise obtuse points. Aside from that you're explaining connections to vedic sources.

No more meta-discussion, thanks.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Re: Ajāta, Amatta, Nibbāna & Vaya

Post by ToVincent »

retrofuturist wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:53 am Greetings
ToVincent wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 5:23 pm TO MODERATOR:
I REALLY DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY THIS THREAD HAS BEEN TAKEN TO "CONNECTION TO OTHER PATHS"
?!?!?
Explain point by point, please.
Thank you.
Because Discovering Theravada is a section for beginners to ask questions... not for others to raise obtuse points. Aside from that you're explaining connections to vedic sources.
No more meta-discussion, thanks.
Hi.
I will try therefore, point by point, to show that my Original Post, that I consider an "early (uncorrupted) Theravada" discussion — considered as "another path" obtuse, and meta-discussion — is far from being so.
Particularly in Part I, where I discuss the INEVITABLE interactional influences of all Indian philosophies, at the time of Buddha; and therefore, their similarities and differences.

This is not a META-DISCUSSION — and if this is "obtuse", it is just due to what seems to be your delibarate unwillingness to acknowledge the fact that Buddhism is an Indian Vedic philosophy, of the late Vedic period.
Which comes to the point of a mere unconscionable denial.
What follows should bring a bit more factual informations to your knowledge about that matter.
And it will be up to you to continue to call that a "meta-discussion".

::::::::::::::::::
PART I
::::::::::::::::::
I started with the concept of the "unborn"/ajāta in Buddhism, that we can find in Ud 8.3.
There is an unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned,” - (atthi, bhikkhave, ajātaṃ abhūtaṃ akataṃ asaṅkhataṃ) - If, monks there were not that unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned, you could not know an escape here from the born, become, made, and conditioned. But because there is an unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned, therefore you do know an escape from the born, become, made, and conditioned.”

This ajāta (ajāta & ajo in Sankrit), is the opposite of jāti - the latter being what should be avoided in Buddhism.
Up to here, no problem with the early Theravada creed, I suppose.

I have added to the knowledge of the uninformed in the matter of Indian philosophy at the time of the Buddha, that this ajāta (a.k.a. ajo), was considered to be the "self" in the Vedic creed of the time - of which Buddha was part - as what we can be somewhat call, a dissident.
I explain.

Buddha, the kshatriya (therefore belonging to the Vedic crowd & creed), was part of the Araṇyaka/Śramaṇa (forest wilderness) dissidence from classical Brahmanism - which little by little, brought the karma of the sacrifices as action, towards the karma of the sacrifices as intention.
Note that the Araṇyaka/Śramaṇa dissidence, was part of a wider Śramaṇa, forest/wilderness tradition, that was not exclusively Vedic.
Which one came first, is not the purpose of this post. And I don't recall that it has ever been settled. So please, refrain.
One thing for sure, though, is that the shift from karma as action (externally acted sacrifice) towards a more internall karma as intention, started to show in the Araṇyakas, and the forest/wilderness movement among the Vedists.
https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=572638#p572638

Being alone in the forest, the "Araṇyaka/Śramaṇa" dissidence could not perform or participate in the acted sacrifices any longer - therefore, they went for a more internal representation of the sacrifice — as represented is in SN 7.9, where Buddha says to a "classical" Vedic Brahmin:
When kindling wood (fire sacrifice),
brahmin, do not imagine
This external deed brings purity;
For experts say no purity is gained
By one who seeks it outwardly.

"Having given up the fire made from wood,
I kindle, 0 brahmin, the inner light alone.
My (born) one's own, being this fire (niccagginī)*,
my (born) one's own, always afflicted by this fire (nic­casamā­hitatto)**,
I am an arahant living the holy life.

*Niccagginī = nitya agni (nitya = ní tya - cf. nija [ ni-já ] (√ [ jan ] )
Āhata = afflicted.
Agginisamā = a pyre.
SA2-99 speaks about ending this unceasing feverish moment (熾然不斷絕).


All this to say that Buddha was a kshatriya, that used to participate in the external fire sacrifice (as seen above) - and who later on, had adopted the Araṇyaka/Śramaṇa path.
There is no reason to postulate that he also shunnned the ajāta (ajo) concept, considered as self in the Vedic creed, in which he was raised as a kshatriya.
Buddha incessantly spoke about "not-rebirthing". And jāti (birth) is an essential part of the suttas, as far as avoiding it.
And Ud 8.3 reinforces that belief.

So, casting out Buddhism from Vedism, would be like considering the Ephesian philosophy, as not being part of the Pre-Socratic philosophy at large.
This would be quite counterintuitive, illogical, irrational and senseless.
As it would be senseless to consider as "another path" in early Theravada, the blatant FACT, that Buddha was part of the Vedic creed.

This is not a META discussion - this is a REAL and FACTUAL (sutta wise) discussion.
And this is what a beginner should understand.
At least in a GENERAL THERAVADA discussion.

Up to you to consider it META ?!?!? - But I suppose that, if this discussion has to be kept, along your good will, into the "CONNECTION TO OTHER PATHS", then, this shouldn't be consider META any longer - unless this is really disturbing you.

END OF PART I

PART 2 — On the real meaning of amata, jhāna, etc. (to be continued).
.
.

To see, or not to see?
Last edited by ToVincent on Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
Those who desire good are few, and those who desire evil are many.
Buddha
(And you just can't imagine how much goodness, those who desire evil, are ready to display - ToVincent).
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Re: Ajo, Amatta, Nibbāna & Vaya

Post by Aloka »

There are some interesting comments about Ud 8.1, Ud 8.3 and Ud 8.4 in chapter 9 "The Unconditioned and Non-Locality" in Ajahn Pasanno and Ajahn Amaro's book ' The Island .' (Ud 8.3 was quoted earlier in this topic).

https://www.amaravati.org/dhamma-books/the-island/

Also, I don't think there are two t's in amata. (in the title of this topic)

.
auto
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Re: Ajāta, Amatta, Nibbāna & Vaya

Post by auto »

ToVincent wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:29 am This is not a META discussion - this is a REAL and FACTUAL (sutta wise) discussion.
i agree it isn't meta discussion. Meta discussion is what Sutta-only people are doing and when they are seeing anything else than Sutta they call it not-meta.
I think he meant meta as the discussion about where the thread is belonging to, so in that sense it is off topic discussion. So does retro use off'topic discussion under the term meta??

I didn't know:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta-discussion wrote: The term meta-discussion means a discussion whose subject is a discussion.
Last edited by auto on Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Ajo, Amatta, Nibbāna & Vaya

Post by Ceisiwr »

In the Udana-atthakatha Ven. Dhammapāla wrote regarding this passage the following
Attachments
Udana 3.jpg
Udana 2.jpg
Udana 1.jpg
"Analysis and synthesis are praised by the wise,
liberation in the Sāsana comes from analysis and synthesis;
the purpose of the method of analysis and synthesis is the ultimate"


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Re: Ajo, Amatta, Nibbāna & Vaya

Post by Ceisiwr »

Couldn't fit in the last post
Attachments
Udana 4.jpg
"Analysis and synthesis are praised by the wise,
liberation in the Sāsana comes from analysis and synthesis;
the purpose of the method of analysis and synthesis is the ultimate"


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Re: Ajo, Amatta, Nibbāna & Vaya

Post by ToVincent »

Thankfully, the Buddha - once the correct lexicography is applied - has a simple way to speak.
These cittakkharā, cittabyañjanā, bāhirakā, fancy and nonsensical talks, outside the canon, are just pure verbiage lacking emptiness, profoundness and a supramundane dimension.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
Those who desire good are few, and those who desire evil are many.
Buddha
(And you just can't imagine how much goodness, those who desire evil, are ready to display - ToVincent).
auto
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Re: Ajo, Amata, Nibbāna & Vaya

Post by auto »

ToVincent wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:31 pm
Still... is amata/amṛta really meaning "deathless" — that's what import, doesn't it?
..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E1%B9%9Ata wrote:In the Vedic religion, Ṛta (/ˈrɪtə/; Sanskrit ऋत ṛta "order, rule; truth") is the principle of natural order which regulates and coordinates the operation of the universe and everything within it.
aren't it also what tai chi(supreme ultimate) is. What i want to contextualize here is that it is two things, yin yang. Also the hexagrams

perhaps few words on it?
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