why westerners dont beleive in after life world

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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confusedlayman
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why westerners dont beleive in after life world

Post by confusedlayman »

many westerns are offsprings of christians and they all thought about heaven and hell many times due to reading bible etc..

why cant they read buddhism with 31 planes and devas, brahmas and mara? why they try to find secular buddhism without myths?

Indians were atheist from long time (charvaka followers) but in western world why they asking secular buddhism? why they dont beleive in buddhas attainment of divine eye?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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DooDoot
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Re: why westerners dont beleive in after life world

Post by DooDoot »

racist question

many westerners believe in afterlife; many western buddhist is more fundamentalist about afterlife than asian

many asians are atheists

divine eye is not related to after life

31 planes and devas, brahmas and mara is not necessarily related to afterlife

buddha defined his dhamma as visible here & now

why u not yet take true refuge? :shrug:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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confusedlayman
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Re: why westerners dont beleive in after life world

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:44 pm racist question

many westerners believe in afterlife; many western buddhist is more fundamentalist about afterlife than asian

many asians are atheists

divine eye is not related to after life

31 planes and devas, brahmas and mara is not necessarily related to afterlife

buddha defined his dhamma as visible here & now

why u not yet take true refuge? :shrug:
its not racist question but a question that arises when westerners subsribe to secular buddhism.

I have taken refuge already see my signature.

31 planes related to after life also, divine eye to see where they reborn after human birth .. please read suttas .
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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DooDoot
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Re: why westerners dont beleive in after life world

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:56 pm westerners subsribe to secular buddhism.
wrong view
confusedlayman wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:56 pmI have taken refuge already see my signature.
no. u cannot take refuge in wrong view of dhamma. dhamma refuge is:
sandiṭṭhiko dhammo hoti akāliko ehipassiko opaneyyiko paccattaṃ veditabbo viññūhī

the teaching visible in the here & now, immediately effective, inviting inspection, relevant, so that sensible people can know it for themselves
:candle:
confusedlayman wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:56 pm31 planes related to after life also, divine eye to see where they reborn after human birth ..
no evidence for the above. the sutta say a 'human birth' is mind without greed, hatred & delusion, as follows:
Bhikkhus, a god, a human or any other good state would not be evident from actions born of greed, hate and delusion. Yet, bhikkhus, from actions born of greed, hate and delusion a hellish being, an animal birth a ghostly birth or some other bad state would be evident.

AN 6.39
:candle:
confusedlayman wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:56 pmplease read suttas .
slander; hypocrisy; nonsense

:thinking:
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:06 pm, edited 5 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: why westerners dont beleive in after life world

Post by Ceisiwr »

confusedlayman wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:38 pm many westerns are offsprings of christians and they all thought about heaven and hell many times due to reading bible etc..

why cant they read buddhism with 31 planes and devas, brahmas and mara? why they try to find secular buddhism without myths?

Indians were atheist from long time (charvaka followers) but in western world why they asking secular buddhism? why they dont beleive in buddhas attainment of divine eye?
Where I live, Wales, most people i've known in my life are non-religous and even anti-religious to some extent. Its quite often that I hear people say that they "believe in science instead". With that being said, you would be amazed at how many of the very same people then say they believe in ghosts or some kind of afterlife. So, whilst not being religious is quite common strict materialism or scepticism is not. Personally it seems to me that many people want the benefits of religion, as in an afterlife, but without having to follow any of the commandments or moral precepts. Why people became non-religous or anti-religious in so many numbers I'm not so sure.

I've also noticed the same phenomenon from people in other parts of the U.K.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Paññaṃ nappamajjeyya, saccamanurakkheyya, cāgamanubrūheyya, santimeva so sikkheyyā’ti
“One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, cultivate relinquishment and train for peace.”

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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Ceisiwr
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Re: why westerners dont beleive in after life world

Post by Ceisiwr »

confusedlayman
when westerners subsribe to secular buddhism.
In my experience, 9/10 secular Buddhists are simply left leaning/liberal secular humanists who find themsevles in the awkward position of actually agreeing with a religion.
Paññaṃ nappamajjeyya, saccamanurakkheyya, cāgamanubrūheyya, santimeva so sikkheyyā’ti
“One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, cultivate relinquishment and train for peace.”

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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Ceisiwr
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Re: why westerners dont beleive in after life world

Post by Ceisiwr »

confusedlayman
secular buddhism? why they dont beleive in buddhas attainment of divine eye?
From wrong view comes wrong practice and wrong understanding. Secular Buddhists tend to not give up their previously held views of materialism/physicalism, philosophical naturalism or scepticism and fail to realise that the Dhamma actually attacks these positions.
Paññaṃ nappamajjeyya, saccamanurakkheyya, cāgamanubrūheyya, santimeva so sikkheyyā’ti
“One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, cultivate relinquishment and train for peace.”

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: why westerners dont beleive in after life world

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

There is a huge Spiritist community in my country. My mother is Spiritist, btw. I think that's why she got interested in Buddhist as I talked to her.
Afaik, they believe in a kind of karma and reincarnation. But even Spiritists believe in a soul. It was difficult to talk to my mother about anatta. :zzz:
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
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DooDoot
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Re: why westerners dont beleive in after life world

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:11 pm fail to realise that the Dhamma actually attacks these positions.
non-sense :) Dhamma = dhatu = naturalism
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
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Ceisiwr
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Re: why westerners dont beleive in after life world

Post by Ceisiwr »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:31 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:11 pm fail to realise that the Dhamma actually attacks these positions.
non-sense :) Dhamma = dhatu = naturalism
Philosophical naturalism is a type of physicalism, as in materialism.
Paññaṃ nappamajjeyya, saccamanurakkheyya, cāgamanubrūheyya, santimeva so sikkheyyā’ti
“One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, cultivate relinquishment and train for peace.”

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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DooDoot
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Re: why westerners dont beleive in after life world

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:44 pm Philosophical naturalism is a type of physicalism, as in materialism.
An equivalent of the word 'materialism' appears not found in the suttas. Also, those that interpret 'jati' as physical birth appear obviously engaged in physicalism/materialism. I suggest to quote sutta rather than manufacture personal imaginary dogma claimed to be Buddha-Dhamma. :thanks:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
SteRo
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Re: why westerners dont beleive in after life world

Post by SteRo »

The issue is believing in 'before death world'.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ It's definitely not science but science may provide guidelines nevertheless.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: why westerners dont beleive in after life world

Post by Ceisiwr »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:50 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:44 pm Philosophical naturalism is a type of physicalism, as in materialism.
An equivalent of the word 'materialism' appears not found in the suttas. Also, those that interpret 'jati' as physical birth appear obviously engaged in physicalism/materialism. I suggest to quote sutta rather than manufacture personal imaginary dogma claimed to be Buddha-Dhamma. :thanks:
I would say this:
There is no such thing as alms or sacrifice or offering. There is neither fruit nor result of good or evil deeds. A human being is built up of four elements. When he dies the earthly in him returns and relapses to the earth, the fluid to the water, the heat to the fire, the wind to the air, and his faculties pass into space. The four bearers, on the bier as a fifth, take his dead body away; till they reach the burning ground, men utter forth eulogies, but there his bones are bleached, and his offerings end in ashes. It is a doctrine of fools, this talk of gifts. It is an empty lie, mere idle talk, when men say there is profit herein. Fools and wise alike, on the dissolution of the body, are cut off, annihilated, and after death they are not.
is an early materialist doctrine, very similar to Epicurus or Democritus.
Paññaṃ nappamajjeyya, saccamanurakkheyya, cāgamanubrūheyya, santimeva so sikkheyyā’ti
“One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, cultivate relinquishment and train for peace.”

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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Mr Man
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Re: why westerners dont beleive in after life world

Post by Mr Man »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:06 pm confusedlayman
when westerners subsribe to secular buddhism.
In my experience, 9/10 secular Buddhists are simply left leaning/liberal secular humanists who find themsevles in the awkward position of actually agreeing with a religion.
Have you ever actually met a secular Buddhist?

And have you ever thought of leaving your political/general bias at the door of this forum. Like taking your shoes off when entering a temple.

:twothumbsup:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: why westerners dont beleive in after life world

Post by Ceisiwr »

Mr Man
Have you ever actually met a secular Buddhist?
Yes.
And have you ever thought of leaving your political/general bias at the door of this forum. Like taking your shoes off when entering a temple.
Its simply an observation :shrug:
Paññaṃ nappamajjeyya, saccamanurakkheyya, cāgamanubrūheyya, santimeva so sikkheyyā’ti
“One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, cultivate relinquishment and train for peace.”

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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