all buddhist sects the same?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Mahabrahma
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Re: Mahayana and secular logic has made me largely give up on the path...

Post by Mahabrahma »

Everything I have experienced in Buddhism holds itself together, otherwise it would be a non-Buddhist doctrine. Mahayana, Thravada, and Vajrayana are all an Expedient Means of the same Vehicle that have never opposed eachother. Those that try to find oppositions instead of respecting the beautiful varieties of the teachings are misunderstanding the ultimate purpose of what the Buddha has created. I think you also misunderstand the difference between the Enlightened and unenlightened, how can you see someone who can and can't regress as exactly the same, or that there is no difference between the fallible and infallible? Everyone is potentially a Buddha, will be a Buddha, but not all beings are Buddhas in all of their states of consciousness at the present moment. There is a clear change of consciousness and understanding in the attainment of Awakening. Have faith that Buddhism is for the embetterment of the world, and it's ultimate saving grace. Guatama purposefully created all sorts of Expedient Means and philosophies for you and for all of us so that we can ultimately gain and realize the Buddha wisdom. Don't turn back on the path, and by far don't leave it, if you want Enlightenment simply fully desire it, Spiritually, and you will achieve it.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Mahayana and secular logic has made me largely give up on the path...

Post by Ceisiwr »

Mahabrahma wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:30 pm Everything I have experienced in Buddhism holds itself together, otherwise it would be a non-Buddhist doctrine. Mahayana, Thravada, and Vajrayana are all an Expedient Means of the same Vehicle that have never opposed eachother. Those that try to find oppositions instead of respecting the beautiful varieties of the teachings are misunderstanding the ultimate purpose of what the Buddha has created. I think you also misunderstand the difference between the Enlightened and unenlightened, how can you see someone who can and can't regress as exactly the same, or that there is no difference between the fallible and infallible? Everyone is potentially a Buddha, will be a Buddha, but not all beings are Buddhas in all of their states of consciousness at the present moment. There is a clear change of consciousness and understanding in the attainment of Awakening. Have faith that Buddhism is for the embetterment of the world, and it's ultimate saving grace. Guatama purposefully created all sorts of Expedient Means and philosophies for you and for all of us so that we can ultimately gain and realize the Buddha wisdom. Don't turn back on the path, and by far don't leave it, if you want Enlightenment simply fully desire it, Spiritually, and you will achieve it.
There are fundamental differences between the different traditions.
“No one in the world, Dhotaka,
can I release from doubting.
But knowing the most excellent Dhamma,
you will cross over the flood."


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Aloka
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Re: Mahayana and secular logic has made me largely give up on the path...

Post by Aloka »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:26 pm
There are fundamental differences between the different traditions.

:thumbsup: :goodpost:


.
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Mahabrahma
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Re: Mahayana and secular logic has made me largely give up on the path...

Post by Mahabrahma »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:26 pm
Mahabrahma wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:30 pm Everything I have experienced in Buddhism holds itself together, otherwise it would be a non-Buddhist doctrine. Mahayana, Thravada, and Vajrayana are all an Expedient Means of the same Vehicle that have never opposed eachother. Those that try to find oppositions instead of respecting the beautiful varieties of the teachings are misunderstanding the ultimate purpose of what the Buddha has created. I think you also misunderstand the difference between the Enlightened and unenlightened, how can you see someone who can and can't regress as exactly the same, or that there is no difference between the fallible and infallible? Everyone is potentially a Buddha, will be a Buddha, but not all beings are Buddhas in all of their states of consciousness at the present moment. There is a clear change of consciousness and understanding in the attainment of Awakening. Have faith that Buddhism is for the embetterment of the world, and it's ultimate saving grace. Guatama purposefully created all sorts of Expedient Means and philosophies for you and for all of us so that we can ultimately gain and realize the Buddha wisdom. Don't turn back on the path, and by far don't leave it, if you want Enlightenment simply fully desire it, Spiritually, and you will achieve it.
There are fundamental differences between the different traditions.
Just because there are differences doesn't mean that if practiced properly they aren't viable practices that lead to Enlightenment, because they are. There is only ultimately only one Vehicle and when it is preached as three by the Buddha it is because merely in order to employ provisional names and terms in order to conduct and guide living beings and preach to them the Buddha wisdom. There is only one Enlightenment for all, and the Buddha doesn't convert others to the Path in a greedy or stingy way with the use of a lesser vehicle. The truth is that there is only one Buddha Vehicle, not two and not three. It includes all of Buddhism all and accepts all of its wisdom fully, with Theravada, Mahayana, and Vajrayana all as one Vehicle. That is the purpose of Buddhism. If you see Buddhism in that light all of your confusion will be washed away. You are right to point out that there are differences in the Teachings though, and that is part of a beautiful expression of the Buddha wisdom.
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Re: Mahayana and secular logic has made me largely give up on the path...

Post by Ceisiwr »

Mahabrahma wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:51 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:26 pm
Mahabrahma wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:30 pm Everything I have experienced in Buddhism holds itself together, otherwise it would be a non-Buddhist doctrine. Mahayana, Thravada, and Vajrayana are all an Expedient Means of the same Vehicle that have never opposed eachother. Those that try to find oppositions instead of respecting the beautiful varieties of the teachings are misunderstanding the ultimate purpose of what the Buddha has created. I think you also misunderstand the difference between the Enlightened and unenlightened, how can you see someone who can and can't regress as exactly the same, or that there is no difference between the fallible and infallible? Everyone is potentially a Buddha, will be a Buddha, but not all beings are Buddhas in all of their states of consciousness at the present moment. There is a clear change of consciousness and understanding in the attainment of Awakening. Have faith that Buddhism is for the embetterment of the world, and it's ultimate saving grace. Guatama purposefully created all sorts of Expedient Means and philosophies for you and for all of us so that we can ultimately gain and realize the Buddha wisdom. Don't turn back on the path, and by far don't leave it, if you want Enlightenment simply fully desire it, Spiritually, and you will achieve it.
There are fundamental differences between the different traditions.
Just because there are differences doesn't mean that if practiced properly they aren't viable practices that lead to Enlightenment, because they are. There is only ultimately only one Vehicle and when it is preached as three by the Buddha it is because merely in order to employ provisional names and terms in order to conduct and guide living beings and preach to them the Buddha wisdom. There is only one Enlightenment for all, and the Buddha doesn't convert others to the Path in a greedy or stingy way with the use of a lesser vehicle. The truth is that there is only one Buddha Vehicle, not two and not three. It includes all of Buddhism all and accepts all of its wisdom fully, with Theravada, Mahayana, and Vajrayana all as one Vehicle. That is the purpose of Buddhism. If you see Buddhism in that light all of your confusion will be washed away. You are right to point out that there are differences in the Teachings though, and that is part of a beautiful expression of the Buddha wisdom.
Well that sounds lovely, but when we look deeper we see there are big differences. The approach to dhammas for example, what ultimate reality is or Nibbana.
“No one in the world, Dhotaka,
can I release from doubting.
But knowing the most excellent Dhamma,
you will cross over the flood."


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Mahabrahma
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Re: Mahayana and secular logic has made me largely give up on the path...

Post by Mahabrahma »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:06 pm
Mahabrahma wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:51 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:26 pm

There are fundamental differences between the different traditions.
Just because there are differences doesn't mean that if practiced properly they aren't viable practices that lead to Enlightenment, because they are. There is only ultimately only one Vehicle and when it is preached as three by the Buddha it is because merely in order to employ provisional names and terms in order to conduct and guide living beings and preach to them the Buddha wisdom. There is only one Enlightenment for all, and the Buddha doesn't convert others to the Path in a greedy or stingy way with the use of a lesser vehicle. The truth is that there is only one Buddha Vehicle, not two and not three. It includes all of Buddhism all and accepts all of its wisdom fully, with Theravada, Mahayana, and Vajrayana all as one Vehicle. That is the purpose of Buddhism. If you see Buddhism in that light all of your confusion will be washed away. You are right to point out that there are differences in the Teachings though, and that is part of a beautiful expression of the Buddha wisdom.
Well that sounds lovely, but when we look deeper we see there are big differences. The approach to dhammas for example, what ultimate reality is or Nibbana.
The terms and descriptions are different, but there is only one Nirvana, and I'm sure even you know it can be reached by each provisional vehicle taught as three, if the Buddhism is practiced properly.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Mahayana and secular logic has made me largely give up on the path...

Post by Ceisiwr »

Mahabrahma wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:13 pm
The terms and descriptions are different, but there is only one Nirvana, and I'm sure even you know it can be reached by each provisional vehicle taught as three, if the Buddhism is practiced properly.
It’s not just a difference in terms (which by itself can be significant). It’s a difference in view, and from Wrong View no awakening can occur.
“No one in the world, Dhotaka,
can I release from doubting.
But knowing the most excellent Dhamma,
you will cross over the flood."


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Re: Mahayana and secular logic has made me largely give up on the path...

Post by Coëmgenu »

Mahabrahma wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:13 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:06 pm
Mahabrahma wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:51 pm

Just because there are differences doesn't mean that if practiced properly they aren't viable practices that lead to Enlightenment, because they are. There is only ultimately only one Vehicle and when it is preached as three by the Buddha it is because merely in order to employ provisional names and terms in order to conduct and guide living beings and preach to them the Buddha wisdom. There is only one Enlightenment for all, and the Buddha doesn't convert others to the Path in a greedy or stingy way with the use of a lesser vehicle. The truth is that there is only one Buddha Vehicle, not two and not three. It includes all of Buddhism all and accepts all of its wisdom fully, with Theravada, Mahayana, and Vajrayana all as one Vehicle. That is the purpose of Buddhism. If you see Buddhism in that light all of your confusion will be washed away. You are right to point out that there are differences in the Teachings though, and that is part of a beautiful expression of the Buddha wisdom.
Well that sounds lovely, but when we look deeper we see there are big differences. The approach to dhammas for example, what ultimate reality is or Nibbana.
The terms and descriptions are different, but there is only one Nirvana, and I'm sure even you know it can be reached by each provisional vehicle taught as three, if the Buddhism is practiced properly.
The ending of your statement is an example of what the OP talked about when he mentioned a lot of people, often accidentally, arguing actively against the Theravāda view, and keep in mind that "Theravāda" is an expansive label, so it's not like there's a dogmatic focus on one Theravādin position. There is Theravādin modernism which may or may not be the Suttantā identified by the OP, which is in conflict with other kinds of Theravāda. However, you have brought us an ekabuddhayāna (一佛乘 "one buddha-vehicle") argument that specifically comes from the Lotus, Queen Śrīmālā, and Flower Garland traditions of Mahāyāna Buddhism.

There is no tradition of referring to "the one Buddha vehicle" in Theravāda, though we can imagine a Theravādin perhaps agreeing that it was true that there was one buddha-vehicle, if it was explained that the buddhamārgha (path of the buddhas), the noble path, was being framed as a "vehicle" for whatever reason. Though that then begs the question of why a vehicle, such as a cart or chariot, is being used as the metaphor instead of a path, such as through a forest or thicket to a destination.

The idea of multiple vehicles on a shared road to Buddhahood is a product of a viewpoint informed by a school that believes in multiple dispensations from the Buddha to different groups of disciples. According to the Theravāda, there is no such school, no such vehicle, as bodhisattvayāna that was ever taught by any Buddha at all -- and that is not a clever Madhyamaka statement vis-a-vis ultimate reality. In light of this, of course a Theravādin can agree to multiple Mahāyāna doctrinal points. There are not two or more nibbānas. The Pratyekabuddhas realize the same nibbāna that is realized by the Śrāvakabuddhas and the Saṁbuddhas. The path the Buddha taught similarly is the same path for all persons. But is this a completely authentic comparison? The Theravādin believes that the path is one and the "vehicle" is one, if a vehicle is to be used figuratively, but not that what they practice is the "one buddha vehicle" of bodhisattvayāna. If you wish to contest this, we will do so in the Connections subforum out of respect both to the forum in general as well as the specific request of the OP, but the ekayāna, "one vehicle," is bodhisattvayāna, and the meaning of the ekabuddhayāna doctrine is that bodhisattvayāna is the essence of śrāvakayāna and pratyekabuddhayāna and that the ultimate destiny of the dviyānikas (二乘之人 "peoples of the two vehicles") culminates in entrance into the Mahāyāna as bodhisattvas. This is why the bodhisattva disciple of the Buddha as characterized as a child in a burning house hears the Buddha speak of the ox cart and finds the ox cart instead of a deer cart, such as the śrāvaka disciple heard the Buddha speaking of, in the parable in the Lotus Sūtra. Because of this, it is not on-topic for this subforum especially. But I imagine you didn't do it intentionally. This is a point of clarification. Disputing it would be on-topic elsewhere, especially if it were disputed based on your personal feelings in your heart about the character and qualities of the Buddha, etc. Nothing wrong with discussing these things, but everything in its proper place, no?
The thus come thus gone,
who has neither came nor went,
enthroned on men’s breath,

like the still turtle,
withdraws six appendages
and is clothed in light --

illuminating
the unilluminated
with three shining cures.
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Mahabrahma
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Re: Mahayana and secular logic has made me largely give up on the path...

Post by Mahabrahma »

I personally don't find Mahayana or Theravada or Vajrayana as one superior to the other, though they all contain different teachings. As long as one venerates all of the Teachings of the Buddha, they will be very successful in Buddhist life. The Lotus Sutra is considered a Mahayana Sutra for example, but it isn't, it's part of a single Vehicle like I mentioned, as mentioned within it's pages, that contained all the other supposed three in an Expedient provisional way. It is wise to preach Buddhism in three vehicles for those who need to hear it in such a way, but ultimately there is only one Vehicle, not two, and not three. If you don't concur on this point, you will find yourself battling Buddhism against Buddhism which is complete nonsense, what the Buddha was always against, and what is confusing the OP in the first place. It is good to respect all the Love given to us by Guatama, and not fight over it in a clinging fashion, so we can all become Buddhas and attain the Supreme Nirvana.
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Re: Mahayana and secular logic has made me largely give up on the path...

Post by cappuccino »

Mahabrahma wrote: part of a single Vehicle like I mentioned
Discernment is important


You seem to wear rose-colored glasses


One needs to discern

rose-colored glasses

a happy or positive attitude that fails to notice negative things, leading to a view of life that is not realistic
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Mahabrahma
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Re: Mahayana and secular logic has made me largely give up on the path...

Post by Mahabrahma »

Thank you, I will do my best to discern more. :anjali:
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Re: all buddhist sects the same?

Post by SteRo »

Mahabrahma wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:30 pm Everything I have experienced in Buddhism holds itself together, otherwise it would be a non-Buddhist doctrine. Mahayana, Thravada, and Vajrayana are all an Expedient Means of the same Vehicle that have never opposed eachother.
You've noticed? First "Everything I have experienced" ... it's about personal experience. So if you experience everything to be the same then who can say anything against your experience? It is just that your experience isn't reality.
Mahabrahma wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:30 pm Those that try to find oppositions instead of respecting the beautiful varieties of the teachings are misunderstanding the ultimate purpose of what the Buddha has created.
You can also experience Buddha as a creator. It's your experience.

Besides the 'personal experience' section of this forum the 'connections to other paths' section is exclusively about personal experience, too. Why? Because there are the doctrines of Mahayana, Theravada, and Vajrayana on one hand and the individual fabrications of individuals (i.e. individual experiences) about whether or how these are "connected" on the other hand. This does not exclude that groups of individuals may agree on certain fabricated views about this.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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Re: all buddhist sects the same?

Post by SteRo »

Mahabrahma wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:19 am Thank you, I will do my best to discern more. :anjali:
Great. There is a famous theme in the suttas which stresses 'discernment' and contrasts it with 'abiding' and it is discernment that leads to liberation, not abiding.
E.g.
And, having seen [that] with discernment, his mental fermentations are completely ended.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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Re: all buddhist sects the same?

Post by Mahabrahma »

My experience concurs with Scripture, and it's what I primarily draw from to hold my views. I am a keeper of Buddhism so it's not something I have ever let go of, that's why I find it so important. The person who posted the original topic of this thread who was the original poster claimed He is falling off the path, though it may be temporary, it is still very real and this world is a hurtful place. I understand people's desire to hold onto a certain path or certain form of Buddhism, one must not let go of their own practice, ever. But do you remember how when Guatama came He asked us not to cling onto rituals if there were any drawbacks. Well there is a drawback in not respecting all forms of Buddhism. Not respecting other's Buddhism pushes one away from friendliness, that is one thing, and then it hinders their Buddha Nature. You may already be Enlightened, SteRo, but the OP of that thread is not and he is close to returning to Buddhism fully, and he should do this with a warm of welcome as possible from all the lights in the different forms of Buddhism, so that he will not be in the darkness of doubt, because doubt is what is keeping him back. You fully understand this and I see your wisdom. Om.
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Mahabrahma
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Re: all buddhist sects the same?

Post by Mahabrahma »

Also all Buddhist sects are not the same. Nearly every sect is different. I was saying there is only one vehicle and not three. Very different view. I just noticed the thread title :smile: . That's okay I'm glad the thread was moved as need be.
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