I believe in Science

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Ceisiwr
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I believe in Science

Post by Ceisiwr »

Very often I hear British people say “I’m not religious. I believe in Science”, which makes me cringe every time I hear it. Why do people believe in a method? Does it even make sense to say that? Why do people think that abstract theories and facts that only ever help with problem solving can grant meaning? True, science can aid in our understanding, but why do people take it as THE way to understand reality in the U.K. and the west at large?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
perkele
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Re: I believe in Science

Post by perkele »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:29 am Very often I hear British people say “I’m not religious. I believe in Science”, which makes me cringe every time I hear it. Why do people believe in a method? Does it even make sense to say that? Why do people think that abstract theories and facts that only ever help with problem solving can grant meaning? True, science can aid in our understanding, but why do people take it as THE way to understand reality in the U.K. and the west at large?
Why not believe in a method? In the effectiveness of a method? (for whatever its purpose is)

Is not the gist of the Buddha's Dhamma also a method? A method to attain the end of suffering?
And would that not rightly be called "problem solving" as well? Solving the ultimate problem?

The greatest problem with most people who say they "believe in science", I think, is that they don't know what they are talking about in most cases. (Probably similar with most people who believe in the Buddha's method.) And they just abuse their "belief" as a rhetoric device to underpin their otherwise unfounded opinion about certain things.
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Re: I believe in Science

Post by cappuccino »

:candle:
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: I believe in Science

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Science is the middle name for the culture where the New comers are continually and successively proven wrong by the NewEr comers.


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𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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mikenz66
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Re: I believe in Science

Post by mikenz66 »

perkele wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:38 am The greatest problem with most people who say they "believe in science", I think, is that they don't know what they are talking about in most cases. (Probably similar with most people who believe in the Buddha's method.) And they just abuse their "belief" as a rhetoric device to underpin their otherwise unfounded opinion about certain things.
Yes, similar with people who use arguments like "The experts disagree, therefore my idea is just as valid...", or "Science is unreliable because these predictions from X years ago were wrong...". Betrays a complete misunderstanding of how science works.

I agree with Ceisiwr that there is too much assumption that science is the only useful process for making sense of knowledge. Just because the approach of Physics and Chemistry (in particular) gave us such awesome technology (good and bad, but basically most of the technology we rely on...) doesn't prove that it's the most effective method in other areas. Arguably, applying similar methods in psychology, for example, have not led to a revolution in happiness. See this discussion:
Sujato wrote: Of course people applying scientific method have come up with helpful insights. But why? Is that because of scientific method, or because they were intelligent and sincere people trying to understand?
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/th ... nces/17882
Arguably, other approaches, such as Dhamma, are more effective in those areas...

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Mike
Last edited by mikenz66 on Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: I believe in Science

Post by Ceisiwr »

perkele wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:38 am
Why not believe in a method? In the effectiveness of a method? (for whatever its purpose is)

Is not the gist of the Buddha's Dhamma also a method? A method to attain the end of suffering?
And would that not rightly be called "problem solving" as well? Solving the ultimate problem?
Well to give an example, I can say that I believe in CLED agar to differentiate lactose fermenting bacteria from non-lactose fermenting bacteria (ignoring the horrible epistemology at play here). This can help to diagnose a patient, but does it actually help to inform my life in terms of meaning and purpose?
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:04 am, edited 3 times in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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retrofuturist
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Re: I believe in Science

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

I've moved this to Connections To Other Paths, but that's still pretty tenuous.

Without some effort to introduce Theravada concepts, this topic may be closed.

Feel free to start a parallel topic at DWE, where this would very much be "on forum" regardless.

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Ceisiwr
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Re: I believe in Science

Post by Ceisiwr »

mikenz66 wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:02 am
I agree with Ceisiwr that there is too much assumption that science is the only useful process for making sense of knowledge. Just because the approach of Physics and Chemistry (in particular) gave us such awesome technology (good and bad, but basically most of the technology we rely on...) doesn't prove that it's the most effective method in other areas. Arguably, applying similar methods in psychology, for example, have not led to a revolution in happiness.
Our thoughts are one, for a change :)
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: I believe in Science

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

The Oxford dictionary defines this "belief" quite well:

https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/scientism

One example alluding to Marxism perhaps:
‘Indeed, unity is an indispensable plank in the doctrine of scientism, the philosophical underpinning of totalitarian regimes.’
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
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Re: I believe in Science

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Buddhism is a religion based on intelligence, science and knowledge, whose purpose is the destruction of suffering and the source of suffering.

Handbook for Mankind
One must study the Buddha's science before one can know the immaterial, formless elements, which are a matter of the mind and heart.... We are learning something about the Buddha's science, the science, that encompasses the physical, mental and spiritual spheres. It enables us to have an utterly thorough knowledge of all things that precludes any further grasping at them. And it is this that must be the meaning of emptiness for us.

Heartwood from the Bo Tree
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: I believe in Science

Post by Ceisiwr »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:13 am
Buddhism is a religion based on intelligence, science and knowledge, whose purpose is the destruction of suffering and the source of suffering.

Handbook for Mankind
One must study the Buddha's science before one can know the immaterial, formless elements, which are a matter of the mind and heart.... We are learning something about the Buddha's science, the science, that encompasses the physical, mental and spiritual spheres. It enables us to have an utterly thorough knowledge of all things that precludes any further grasping at them. And it is this that must be the meaning of emptiness for us.

Heartwood from the Bo Tree
The Dhamma isn’t science. It’s so much more.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: I believe in Science

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SCIENTIFIC APPROACH

We are all in a situation where we must use a scientific method to solve our problem. We must use a specifically scientific approach, because the methods of philosophy and logic can't solve the problem.4 There are myriad philosophies concerning everything imaginable, but none of them can solve our problem. Philosophies are very popular with people in today's world, they are fun and interesting, but they don't work. This is why we must turn to a scientific method which can and will solve the problem.

It is now time to recall something about which you've probably already heard: the four noble truths (ariya-sacca). Please reflect upon this most important matter. The four noble truths are Buddhism's scientific principle of the mind. The four noble truths allow us to study the specific problem exactly as it is, without relying on any hypothesis. Most of you are familiar with the standard scientific method in which a hypothesis is proposed, then tested through experimentation. Such hypotheses are merely forms of guessing and estimation. With the ariya-sacca such clumsiness isn't necessary. Reality is experienced and examined directly, rather than through the limitations of hypothesis, predictions, and guestimations.

The Scientific Cure of Spiritual Disease
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: I believe in Science

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:17 am ...
I know what i posted. There is no need to repost a lengthy post for an unsubstantiated trite one sentence reply.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
pegembara
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Re: I believe in Science

Post by pegembara »

This sounds like a scientific and logical analysis of sense experience -
"Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there arises what is felt either as pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain. If, when touched by a feeling of pleasure, one relishes it, welcomes it, or remains fastened to it, then one's passion-obsession gets obsessed. If, when touched by a feeling of pain, one sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats one's breast, becomes distraught, then one's resistance-obsession gets obsessed. If, when touched by a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, one does not discern, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, or escape from that feeling, then one's ignorance-obsession gets obsessed. That a person — without abandoning passion-obsession with regard to a feeling of pleasure, without abolishing resistance-obsession with regard to a feeling of pain, without uprooting ignorance-obsession with regard to a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, without abandoning ignorance and giving rise to clear knowing — would put an end to suffering & stress in the here & now: such a thing isn't possible.

"Dependent on the ear & sounds...

"Dependent on the nose & aromas...

"Dependent on the tongue & flavors...

"Dependent on the body & tactile sensations...

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And even better, can be tested out and verified.
"No, lord, for in many ways the Blessed One has said of dependently co-arisen consciousness, 'Apart from a requisite condition, there is no coming-into-play of consciousness.'"

"It's good, monks, that you understand the Dhamma taught by me in this way, for in many ways I have said of dependently co-arisen consciousness, 'Apart from a requisite condition, there is no coming-into-play of consciousness.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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Ceisiwr
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Re: I believe in Science

Post by Ceisiwr »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:19 am
SCIENTIFIC APPROACH

We are all in a situation where we must use a scientific method to solve our problem. We must use a specifically scientific approach, because the methods of philosophy and logic can't solve the problem.4 There are myriad philosophies concerning everything imaginable, but none of them can solve our problem. Philosophies are very popular with people in today's world, they are fun and interesting, but they don't work. This is why we must turn to a scientific method which can and will solve the problem.

It is now time to recall something about which you've probably already heard: the four noble truths (ariya-sacca). Please reflect upon this most important matter. The four noble truths are Buddhism's scientific principle of the mind. The four noble truths allow us to study the specific problem exactly as it is, without relying on any hypothesis. Most of you are familiar with the standard scientific method in which a hypothesis is proposed, then tested through experimentation. Such hypotheses are merely forms of guessing and estimation. With the ariya-sacca such clumsiness isn't necessary. Reality is experienced and examined directly, rather than through the limitations of hypothesis, predictions, and guestimations.

The Scientific Cure of Spiritual Disease
Repeating this dogma doesn’t make it true. The Dhamma is not science. Science is the application of the scientific method to the material world in order to disprove hypothesises. Those hypothesises which aren’t falsified are retained as the best current theory, but they are never knowledge. All of this relies upon repeatable objective experiments. Jhana, the 4NT, DO and the like don’t fit this criteria for they deal with how we experience the world. In short, you can’t shove the Dhamma into a test tube. You couldn’t give me any of your insights for me to test in my lab. I couldn’t generate any statistical analysis from the Dhamma. No P value or the like could be arrived at to help me gather what is probable.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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