What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
SarathW
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What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?

Post by SarathW »

What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?

I have just started reading Vimuttimaga today. I like to know the opinion of people who have read both.

http://urbandharma.org/pdf1/Path_of_Fre ... imagga.pdf
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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

Vimuttimagga is the oldest ..

So it is closer to the Canon in Pali.

and so it can be more reliable.
Relationship to the Visuddhimagga

The Vimuttimagga bears a striking similarity to the Visuddhimagga by Buddhagosa, and it is highly probable that it had an influence on Buddhagosa.[5] While the Visuddhimagga is a much longer work, both texts differ on several points. According to Bhikkhu Analayo, the Chinese version of the Vimuttimagga states that ascetic practices (dhutanga) can be unwholesome and wholesome while the Visuddhimagga denies that they can be unwholesome, although he notes that the Tibetan Vimuktimārga classifies ascetic practices as "wholesome".[6] A similar difference can be seen with regards to concentration (samādhi) which the Vimuttimagga states can be wholesome or unwholesome (micchā samādhi/邪定) while the Visuddhimagga disagrees that it can be unwholesome.[7] Another major difference is in the scheme of the progress of insight, which the Vimuttimagga arranges based on the four noble truths and the Visuddhimagga arranges based on the seven purifications which stem from the Rathavinīta-sutta.[8]

Minor differences can also be seen in the particular schemes of practice. Upatissa gives four categories of Śīla while Buddhagosa gives five. Upatissa gives four ways of cultivating Anapanasati, while Buddhagosa gives eight.[5] In addition, the Visuddhimagga identifies forty subjects of meditation (kammatthana) while the Vimuttimagga identifies thirty-eight.[9]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vimuttimagga
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Re: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?

Post by confusedlayman »

SarathW wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 12:27 pm What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?

I have just started reading Vimuttimaga today. I like to know the opinion of people who have read both.

http://urbandharma.org/pdf1/Path_of_Fre ... imagga.pdf
vimutimagga easy to follow but visudhimagga some points are experimentally proven in my life.. both are true but if u want book with less page go with vimutimagga ..

both are true in my opinion and both can be reliable because they both were spoken from personal experience
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Re: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

  • Comparatively, Vissudhimagga is more beneficial:
    • being more matured
    • encompassing pinnacle of accrued wisdom of great minds in lineage of the Buddha, not limited to the the wisdom surrounding Venerable Upatissa's time.
.


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Re: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?

Post by SarathW »

Lucas Oliveira wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 2:40 pm Vimuttimagga is the oldest ..

So it is closer to the Canon in Pali.

and so it can be more reliable.
Relationship to the Visuddhimagga

The Vimuttimagga bears a striking similarity to the Visuddhimagga by Buddhagosa, and it is highly probable that it had an influence on Buddhagosa.[5] While the Visuddhimagga is a much longer work, both texts differ on several points. According to Bhikkhu Analayo, the Chinese version of the Vimuttimagga states that ascetic practices (dhutanga) can be unwholesome and wholesome while the Visuddhimagga denies that they can be unwholesome, although he notes that the Tibetan Vimuktimārga classifies ascetic practices as "wholesome".[6] A similar difference can be seen with regards to concentration (samādhi) which the Vimuttimagga states can be wholesome or unwholesome (micchā samādhi/邪定) while the Visuddhimagga disagrees that it can be unwholesome.[7] Another major difference is in the scheme of the progress of insight, which the Vimuttimagga arranges based on the four noble truths and the Visuddhimagga arranges based on the seven purifications which stem from the Rathavinīta-sutta.[8]

Minor differences can also be seen in the particular schemes of practice. Upatissa gives four categories of Śīla while Buddhagosa gives five. Upatissa gives four ways of cultivating Anapanasati, while Buddhagosa gives eight.[5] In addition, the Visuddhimagga identifies forty subjects of meditation (kammatthana) while the Vimuttimagga identifies thirty-eight.[9]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vimuttimagga
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Thanks.
It is surprising why Buddhagosha could not differentiate the wrong concentration and the right concentration also the drawback of Dutanga.
Perhaps he was influenced by Hinduism or did not want to upset his Hindu friends.
What are the additional two meditation objects in Visuddhimagga?
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Re: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

  • This comparative study explores the relation between the Vimuttimagga and Visuddhimagga, the Path of Freedom and the Path of Purification, both classical meditation manuals of the Theravada tradition.The Vimuttimagga, extant as a whole only in a Chinese translation, and partially in Tibetan quotations, is generally regarded as the predecessor of the Visuddhimagga. Although both manuals are Abhidhammic in style, the Vimuttimagga is more practical and concise whereas the Visuddhimagga is more scholarly and elaborate. This study, first published in 1937, is for those who would like to study the similarities and differences between the two works.
    https://store.pariyatti.org/Vimuttimagg ... _2579.html

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SarathW
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Re: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?

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“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?

Post by SteRo »

SarathW wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 12:27 pm What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?

I have just started reading Vimuttimaga today. I like to know the opinion of people who have read both.
Visuddhimagga is intellectually more mature, better structured and more consistent which of course refers to the English translations. So the drawback of Vimuttimagga might partly be the fault of the translator.
Having said that this has nothing to do with reliability which like the mentioned advantages of Visuddhimagga is a 'personal experience', too.
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Re: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?

Post by frank k »

If you read the introductory section to Vimt., it gives you a pretty good idea of the differences between Vism. and Vimt.

Vimt. is practical and concise, meant for people seeking nirvana.
Vism. is compiled with scholarly detail [of questionable value], by non meditators who go on long winded meandering without giving proper guidance on when there are contradictory positions presented, which one is reliable, which one should be followed. It enjoys greater popularity because it's adopted by the late Theravada party, and also has a 'bigger is better' fallacy. The book is much bigger and thicker and it sounds complicated and impressive therefore it must be better and true and correct.

Unfortunately most end users lack the ability and qualifications to sort out what's true and what's false.
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Re: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?

Post by Ceisiwr »

frank k wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 7:24 pm
Vimt. is practical and concise, meant for people seeking nirvana.
Vism. is compiled with scholarly detail [of questionable value], by non meditators
And you know this, how?
“When serenity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Lust is abandoned.”

“When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Wisdom is developed. And when wisdom is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned."


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Eko Care
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Re: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?

Post by Eko Care »

SarathW wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 12:27 pm What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?
Unfortunately one of the passages of Vimuttimagga affects it's reliability over all the other arguments:
"When you meet a person belongs to a low caste while on pindapata, cover the bowl with your hand"
SarathW wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:23 am Perhaps he was influenced by Hinduism or did not want to upset his Hindu friends.
Above caste discrimination (Vimuttimagga) indicates more influence from Hinduism over all the other influences (if any) in Visuddhimagga

Anyway worth considering more observations like below, or more, if you have any ...
confusedlayman wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 6:11 pm vimutimagga easy to follow but visudhimagga some points are experimentally proven in my life..
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 6:48 pm Comparatively, Vissudhimagga is more beneficial
SteRo wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:11 pm Visuddhimagga is intellectually more mature, better structured and more consistent
Last edited by Eko Care on Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Eko Care wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:16 pm
Unfortunately one of the passages of Vimuttimagga affects it's reliability over all the other arguments:
"When you meet a person belongs to a low caste while on pindapata, cover the bowl with your hand"

Above caste discrimination indicates more influence from Hinduism over all the other arguments.
That doesn’t logically follow.
“When serenity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Lust is abandoned.”

“When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Wisdom is developed. And when wisdom is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned."


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Re: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?

Post by Eko Care »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:24 pm
Eko Care wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:16 pm Unfortunately one of the passages of Vimuttimagga affects it's reliability over all the other arguments:
"When you meet a person belongs to a low caste while on pindapata, cover the bowl with your hand"
Above caste discrimination indicates more influence from Hinduism over all the other arguments.
That doesn’t logically follow.
What did you mean by that?
Hinduism has higher caste discrimination.
  • If there are any influence from Hinduism can be seen in Visuddhimagga, ->> they can't be seen opposed to the Dhamma.
  • But the influence from Hinduism shown by the above statement of Vimuttimagga, ->> can be seen in a direct opposition to the Dhamma.
So, what is higher influence?
1. The influence that is still withing the frame of Dhamma ?
2. or The influence that is powerful up to the level of transgressing the frame of Dhamma ?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Eko Care wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:46 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:24 pm
Eko Care wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:16 pm Unfortunately one of the passages of Vimuttimagga affects it's reliability over all the other arguments:
"When you meet a person belongs to a low caste while on pindapata, cover the bowl with your hand"
Above caste discrimination indicates more influence from Hinduism over all the other arguments.
That doesn’t logically follow.
What did you mean by that?
Hinduism has higher caste discrimination.
  • If there are any influence from Hinduism can be seen in Visuddhimagga, ->> they can't be seen opposed to the Dhamma.
  • But the influence from Hinduism shown by the above statement of Vimuttimagga, ->> can be seen in a direct opposition to the Dhamma.
So, what is higher influence?
1. The influence that is still withing the frame of Dhamma ?
2. or The influence that is powerful up to the level of transgressing the frame of Dhamma ?
One of its arguments being wrong doesn’t invalidate all of its other arguments.
“When serenity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Lust is abandoned.”

“When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Wisdom is developed. And when wisdom is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned."


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Re: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?

Post by Eko Care »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:49 pm One of its arguments being wrong doesn’t invalidate all of its other arguments.
Yes, but there are no any such wrong passages can be found in Visuddhimagga.

The availability of direct Adhamma in a certain book suggest that the author's understanding of Dhamma is wrong.
(At least not up to the level of teaching meditaion).


Isn't it?

(Nevertheless the author might possess other good aspects of Dhamma)
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