Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

Eko Care wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:16 pm Above caste discrimination (Vimuttimagga) indicates more influence from Hinduism over all the other influences (if any) in Visuddhimagga

“Mendicants, even if a monk is of impeccable character, he might be suspected and distrusted as a ‘bad monk’ for five reasons. What five?

It’s when a monk frequently collects alms from prostitutes, widows, voluptuous girls, eunuchs, or nuns.

https://suttacentral.net/an5.102/en/sujato

Eko Care wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:16 pm
Anyway worth considering more observations like below, or more, if you have any ...

confusedlayman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 6:11 pm vimutimagga easy to follow but visudhimagga some points are experimentally proven in my life..

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 6:48 pm Comparatively, Vissudhimagga is more beneficial

SteRo wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:11 pm Visuddhimagga is intellectually more mature, better structured and more consistent

Eko Care wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:56 pm Yes, but there are no any such wrong passages can be found in Visuddhimagga.

Eko Care wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:56 pm

Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:49 pm One of its arguments being wrong doesn’t invalidate all of its other arguments.

Yes, but there are no any such wrong passages can be found in Visuddhimagga.

The availability of direct Adhamma in a certain book suggest that the author's understanding of Dhamma is wrong.
(At least not up to the level of teaching meditaion).

Isn't it?

(Nevertheless the author might possess other good aspects of Dhamma)

Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:24 pm I remember reading in the Expositor that Pali is the mother language of all languages. That when an infant doesn’t hear any other language it will naturally know Pali. All other languages are degenerate forms then of Pali. This is a distinctly Vedic understanding of language, only framed in terms of Pali rather than Sanskrit. This is clearly a case of “hindu influence” on the commentaries. Shall we now reject all of them?

Eko Care wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:31 pm

Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:24 pm I remember reading in the Expositor that Pali is the mother language of all languages. That when an infant doesn’t hear any other language it will naturally know Pali. All other languages are degenerate forms then of Pali. This is a distinctly Vedic understanding of language, only framed in terms of Pali rather than Sanskrit. This is clearly a case of “hindu influence” on the commentaries. Shall we now reject all of them?

Commentary is not considered to be compiled by a single author.

SarathW wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 12:27 pm What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?

retrofuturist wrote:
A former Dhamma Wheel member who I regard as an arya, spoke highly of it.

Eko Care wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:58 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
A former Dhamma Wheel member who I regard as an arya, spoke highly of it.

Any one who have common sense about modern people's arya titles,
may quickly judge the book, seeing the above comment.

It is quite obvious that the Mahāvihāra and the Abhayagiri unanimously accepted the Pāli Tipiṭaka as authoritative texts. Yet the latter further
enlarged its ambit by accepting some non-Theravāda teachings, including Mahāyāna and Vajrayāna, showing a completely different attitude from the ideological stance of the Mahāvihāra.

… The Abhayagiri fraternity was always ready to welcome new ideas, and adjusted its monastic system in accordance with time and socio-religious
needs, whereas the Mahāvihāra considered this as an unwelcome and unacceptable transformation. In other words we can say that the Abhayagiri was radical and innovative whereas the Mahāvihāra was traditional and conservative.

Vimuttimagga- skilling PTS
Mahayanized Theravada / Abhayagiri Incident / Outside influences on "Classical Theravada"

Eko Care wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:30 pm

It is quite obvious that the Mahāvihāra and the Abhayagiri unanimously accepted the Pāli Tipiṭaka as authoritative texts. Yet the latter further
enlarged its ambit by accepting some non-Theravāda teachings, including Mahāyāna and Vajrayāna, showing a completely different attitude from the ideological stance of the Mahāvihāra.

… The Abhayagiri fraternity was always ready to welcome new ideas, and adjusted its monastic system in accordance with time and socio-religious
needs, whereas the Mahāvihāra considered this as an unwelcome and unacceptable transformation. In other words we can say that the Abhayagiri was radical and innovative whereas the Mahāvihāra was traditional and conservative.

Vimuttimagga- skilling PTS
Mahayanized Theravada / Abhayagiri Incident / Outside influences on "Classical Theravada"

Eko Care wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:16 pm

SarathW wrote: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?

Unfortunately one of the passages of Vimuttimagga affects it's reliability over all the other arguments:
"When you meet a person belongs to a low caste while on pindapata, cover the bowl with your hand"

SarathW wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:23 am Perhaps he was influenced by Hinduism or did not want to upset his Hindu friends.

Above caste discrimination (Vimuttimagga) indicates more influence from Hinduism over all the other influences (if any) in Visuddhimagga

Anyway worth considering more observations like below, or more, if you have any ...

confusedlayman wrote: vimutimagga easy to follow but visudhimagga some points are experimentally proven in my life..

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Comparatively, Vissudhimagga is more beneficial

SteRo wrote: Visuddhimagga is intellectually more mature, better structured and more consistent

asahi wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:09 am In terms of jhana , i found the Vism decription of the meditation being diverted from the right path .