Real-time dialogue between experimenters and dreamers during REM sleep

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Lucas Oliveira
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Real-time dialogue between experimenters and dreamers during REM sleep

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

It is important to maintain full attention 24 hours a day.

but is it possible to maintain mindfulness during sleep?

some information about our sleep

recent scientific work
Real-time dialogue between experimenters and dreamers during REM sleep

Highlights

Dream reports given after people awaken are often fragmentary and distorted

Our methods allow for two-way communication with individuals during a lucid dream

For a proof-of-concept demonstration, we presented math problems and yes-no questions

Dreamers answered in real time with volitional eye movements or facial muscle signals

Summary

Dreams take us to a different reality, a hallucinatory world that feels as real as any waking experience. These often-bizarre episodes are emblematic of human sleep but have yet to be adequately explained. Retrospective dream reports are subject to distortion and forgetting, presenting a fundamental challenge for neuroscientific studies of dreaming. Here we show that individuals who are asleep and in the midst of a lucid dream (aware of the fact that they are currently dreaming) can perceive questions from an experimenter and provide answers using electrophysiological signals. We implemented our procedures for two-way communication during polysomnographically verified rapid-eye-movement (REM) sleep in 36 individuals. Some had minimal prior experience with lucid dreaming, others were frequent lucid dreamers, and one was a patient with narcolepsy who had frequent lucid dreams. During REM sleep, these individuals exhibited various capabilities, including performing veridical perceptual analysis of novel information, maintaining information in working memory, computing simple answers, and expressing volitional replies. Their responses included distinctive eye movements and selective facial muscle contractions, constituting correctly answered questions on 29 occasions across 6 of the individuals tested. These repeated observations of interactive dreaming, documented by four independent laboratory groups, demonstrate that phenomenological and cognitive characteristics of dreaming can be interrogated in real time. This relatively unexplored communication channel can enable a variety of practical applications and a new strategy for the empirical exploration of dreams.

https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fu ... 21)00059-2

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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Real-time dialogue between experimenters and dreamers during REM sleep

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

some verses of the Dhammapada

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Verse 296. Reflect On The Virtues Of The Buddha

Well awakened, they’re awake
ever the Buddha’s pupils
who constantly by day, by night
are mindful of the Buddha.

Explanation: Those disciples of the Buddha who are mindful of the virtues of their Teacher day and night, arise wide awake and in full control of their faculties.

Verse 297. Reflect On The Virtues Of The Dhamma

Well awakened, they’re awake
ever the Buddha’s pupils
who constantly by day, by night
are mindful of the Dhamma.

Explanation: Those disciples of the Buddha who are mindful of the virtues of the Dhamma day and night, arise wide awake and in full control of their faculties.

Verse 298. Reflect On The Virtues Of The Sangha

Well awakened, they’re awake
ever the Buddha’s pupils
who constantly by day, by night
are mindful of the Sangha.

Explanation: Those disciples of the Buddha who are mindful of the virtues of the Sangha day and night, arise wide awake and in full control of their faculties.

Verse 299. Reflect On The Real Nature of the Body

Well awakened, they’re awake
ever the Buddha’s pupils
who constantly by day, by night
are mindful of the body.

Explanation: Those disciples of the Buddha who are mindful of the real nature of the body day and night, arise wide awake and in full control of their faculties.

Verse 300. Reflect On Harmlessness

Well awakened, they’re awake
ever the Buddha’s pupils
who constantly by day, by night
in harmlessness delight.

Explanation: Those disciples of the Buddha who take delight in harmlessness day and night, arise wide awake and in full control of their faculties.

Verse 301. The Mind That Takes Delight in Meditation

Well awakened, they’re awake
ever the Buddha’s pupils
who constantly by day, by night
in meditation take delight.

Explanation: Those disciples of the Buddha who take delight in meditation day and night, arise wide awake and in full control of their faculties.

http://www.buddhanet.net/dhammapada/d_misc.htm

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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Real-time dialogue between experimenters and dreamers during REM sleep

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

a little of Plato and Socrates Philosophy
[Socrates and Adeimantus)

#571] [Socrates] Last of all comes the tyrannical man; about whom we have once more to ask, how is he formed out of the democratical? and how does he live, in happiness or in misery?

Yes, he said, he is the only one remaining.

[Socrates] There is, however, I said, a previous question which remains unanswered.

What question?

I do not think that we have adequately determined the nature and number of the appetites, and until this is accomplished the inquiry will always be confused.

Well, he said, it is not too late to supply the omission.

Very true, I said; and observe the point which I want to understand: Certain of the unnecessary pleasures and appetites I conceive to be unlawful; everyone appears to have them, but in some persons they are controlled by the laws and by reason, and the better desires prevail over them - either they are wholly banished or they become few and weak; while in the case of others they are stronger, and there are more of them.

Which appetites do you mean?

I mean those which are awake when the reasoning and human and ruling power is asleep; then the wild beast within us, gorged with meat or drink, starts up and, having shaken off sleep, goes forth to satisfy his desires; and there is no conceivable folly or crime - not excepting incest or any other unnatural union, or parricide, or the eating of forbidden food - which at such a time, when he has parted company with all shame and sense, a man may not be ready to commit.

Most true, he said.

But when a man's pulse is healthy and temperate, and when before going to sleep he has awakened his rational powers, and fed them on noble thoughts and inquiries, collecting himself in meditation; after having first indulged his appetites neither too much nor too little, but just enough to lay them to sleep, and prevent them and their enjoyments and pains from interfering with the higher principle - which he leaves in the solitude of pure abstraction, free to contemplate and aspire to the knowledge of the unknown, whether in past, present, or future: when again he has allayed the passionate element, if he has a quarrel against anyone - I say, when, after pacifying the two irrational principles, he rouses up the third, which is reason, before he takes his rest, then, as you know, he attains truth most nearly, and is least likely to be the sport of fantastic and lawless visions.

I quite agree.

In saying this I have been running into a digression; but the point which I desire to note is that in all of us, even in good men, there is a lawless wild-beast nature, which peers out in sleep. Pray, consider whether I am right, and you agree with me.

Yes, I agree.

And now remember the character which we attributed to the democratic man. He was supposed from his youth upward to have been trained under a miserly parent, who encouraged the saving appetites in him, but discountenanced the unnecessary, which aim only at amusement and ornament?

True.

And then he got into the company of a more refined, licentious sort of people, and taking to all their wanton ways rushed into the opposite extreme from an abhorrence of his father's meanness. At last, being a better man than his corruptors, he was drawn in both directions until he halted midway and led a life, not of vulgar and slavish passion, but of what he deemed moderate indulgence in various pleasures. After this manner the democrat was generated out of the oligarch?

Yes, he said; that was our view of him, and is so still.

And now, I said, years will have passed away, and you must conceive this man, such as he is, to have a son, who is brought up in his father's principles.

I can imagine him.

http://studymore.org.uk/xpla9.htm

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johnsmitty
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Re: Real-time dialogue between experimenters and dreamers during REM sleep

Post by johnsmitty »

Lucas Oliveira wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 6:14 am It is important to maintain full attention 24 hours a day.
Why?

I think this is a big mistake of those who interpret mindfulness as an analytic process for figuring out how the mind works, rather than as a moral thing to prevent you from sinning or breaking precepts. Since you can't sin in your sleep, don't have to be mindful while asleep. But if you think its about some "scientific" experiment to figure out exhaustively how the mind works, then you have to be mindful even while asleep; what a task.
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Re: Real-time dialogue between experimenters and dreamers during REM sleep

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

Allan Kardec's Spiritist Doctrine and Spirituality in General
The Spirits’ Book - Allan Kardec

Chapter VIII – The Emancipation of the Soul

Sleep and Dreams

400. Does an incarnate spirit willingly stay in its corporeal envelope?

“That is like asking if a prisoner is happy being under lock and key. An incarnate spirit constantly aspires to freedom. The denser the envelope, the more it wants to be free of it.”

401. During sleep does the soul rest like the body?

“No, a spirit never remains inactive. During sleep, the bonds that join it to the body are loosened, and since the body does not need it while sleeping, the spirit travels through space and enters into a more direct relationship with other spirits.”

402. How can we confirm the fact that a spirit is free during sleep?

“By dreams. While the body rests, the spirit enjoys more of its faculties than in the waking state. It remembers the past and sometimes foresees the future. It acquires more power and can communicate with other spirits whether on this world or another. You frequently say, ‘I had a bizarre
dream, a horrible dream, but there is no likelihood of it being true.’ You are mistaken. It is almost always a memory of places and things which you have seen, or which you will see in another existence or on another occasion. Since the body is dormant, the spirit tries to break its chains in
order to probe into the past and future. “Poor human beings! You know so little about the most ordinary phenomena of life! You believe you are very wise, yet the most ordinary things puzzle you to no end. To the question of all children, ‘What do we do when we sleep?

What are dreams?’ you remain without an answer. “Sleep partially frees the soul from the body. When humans sleep, they momentarily find themselves in the state which they will be in permanently after death. Spirits who quickly free themselves from matter upon death had intelligent dreams during earthly life. Such spirits, while their body is sleeping, rejoin the company of those who are more evolved; they travel with, converse with and learn
from them. They even work on projects that they find completed upon dying. From these facts you should once more learn not to fear death, because you die daily – as a saint once stated.

https://ssbaltimore.org//////resources/ ... s-Book.pdf
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Re: Real-time dialogue between experimenters and dreamers during REM sleep

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A nocturnal emission, informally known as a wet dream, sex dream, nightfall or sleep orgasm, is a spontaneous orgasm during sleep that includes ejaculation for a male, or vaginal wetness or an orgasm (or both) for a female. Nocturnal emissions are most common during adolescence and early young adult years, but they may happen any time after puberty. It is possible for men to wake up during a wet dream or simply to sleep through it, but for women, some researchers have added the requirement that she should also awaken during the orgasm and perceive that the orgasm happened before it counts as a wet dream. Vaginal lubrication alone does not mean that the woman has had an orgasm.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocturnal_emission
I think there is even a rule at Vinaya about this

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Re: Real-time dialogue between experimenters and dreamers during REM sleep

Post by confusedlayman »

is there how to guide on being aware during REM sleep?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Real-time dialogue between experimenters and dreamers during REM sleep

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confusedlayman wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 8:28 am is there how to guide on being aware during REM sleep?
in the scientific work that is at the beginning of this topic ..

participated in this research people who had no experience in lucid dreams and people who had experiences ..

these people who had no experiences, with simple exercises, managed to have lucid dreams ..

on the internet it is easy to find exercises to have lucid dreams ..
How to lucid dream
https://www.tuck.com/how-to-lucid-dream/

How to train your brain to have lucid dreams
https://neurosciencenews.com/lucid-drea ... ing-14287/

5 Techniques to Try for Lucid Dreaming
https://www.healthline.com/health/healt ... ucid-dream
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Re: Real-time dialogue between experimenters and dreamers during REM sleep

Post by dharmacorps »

OP your references on this issue are all over the place, pop-psychology, (psuedo)science, plato, suttas, european philosophy. It is all quite disjointed. I don't see how this would help put an end to suffering, personally. :broke:
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Re: Real-time dialogue between experimenters and dreamers during REM sleep

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:goodpost:
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ . (This is the esoteric essence of the yoga of continuous flow which is no different from the universal flux of materiality. Therefore exoteric natural science provides vital guidelines.) अञ्जलि वागीश्वर
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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Real-time dialogue between experimenters and dreamers during REM sleep

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

dharmacorps wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 8:32 pm OP your references on this issue are all over the place, pop-psychology, (psuedo)science, plato, suttas, european philosophy. It is all quite disjointed. I don't see how this would help put an end to suffering, personally. :broke:
yes, it's a little disconnected ..

I will try to better organize it.

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