What are the differences between Theravada Buddhism and Yogacara?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
SteRo
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Re: What are the differences between Theravada Buddhism and Yogacara?

Post by SteRo »

Cool-team wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:42 pm What do these two schools say about the physical world? Is yogacara some form of solipsism? every Buddhist who believes in Yogacara should believe that only he has consciousness, while other people and living beings around him do not have consciousness and that they are just philosophical zombies that exist only in his imagination? Is this very different from the Theravada doctrine?
Simply consulting Wiki makes own speculative fabrications superfluous:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yog%C4%81 ... ]Yogachara
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SteRo
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Re: What are the differences between Theravada Buddhism and Yogacara?

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Cool-team wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:42 pm What do these two schools say about the physical world? Is yogacara some form of solipsism? every Buddhist who believes in Yogacara should believe that only he has consciousness, while other people and living beings around him do not have consciousness and that they are just philosophical zombies that exist only in his imagination? Is this very different from the Theravada doctrine?
Simply consulting Wiki makes own speculative fabrications superfluous:

Yogachara

Now of course one might say that Wiki isn't more reliable than the opinions of forum users but if you have a look at the Wiki article it it has significant advantages over the postings of forum users:
1. it gives a good and broad overview
2. it is structured and a content outline (linked) is provided in the beginning
3. it provides references to verify the statements in the article.

Having acquired a good knowledge of Yogacara you can then acquire a good knowledge of Theravada. Then you will know for yourself the differences between the two. You may also start with acquiring a good knowledge of Theravada which however might reduce interest in Yogacara and thus you might never get to know for yourself the differences between the two.
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Re: What are the differences between Theravada Buddhism and Yogacara?

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Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:31 am Hence the "unpacking." Modern Pure Land isn't necessarily the same as ancient Pure Land Buddhism. Pure Land Buddhism may well start as a rigourist movement of bodhisattvayāna, for reasons I hope to later outline when I get to this. You need to be an athlete of asceticism to enter into Akṣobhya Buddha's Eastern Paradise, for instance. I can write more later.
thanks for the information, it is very valuable to me! As I understand: 1. Yogacara Buddhism is not any form of solipsism. 2. The Buddhist Yogacara says that all people and living beings have intelligence, sensation and emotions. 3. Yogacara Buddhists believe that all people have consciousness, sensation and emotion. 4. Buddhism Yogacara says that the entire physical world, as well as other people exist only in my imagination. 5.There are solipsistic versions of Yogacara who claim that only I have a mind, and all other people are philosophical zombies.(But almost no one believes in such versions)
But I do not understand: 1. If the physical world and all people exist only in my imagination, how can they have consciousness, sensation, emotions and thoughts? Thank?
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Re: What are the differences between Theravada Buddhism and Yogacara?

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I think number 4 would be objected to by some and no one believes 5 at the level of institutional orthodoxy. Those who object to 4 would say that the external world might be real, but we only have access to it via the deceptive mind. Venerable Dharmakīrti wrote that treatise to reject 4 (and 5). The Wikipedia page SteRo linked to is abnormally well-written for Buddhist Wikipedia. In the section on "Interpretations of this doctrine," it goes through the two sides of the debate. One is represented by Kalupahana, Thomas Kochumuttom, Alex Wayman et al. These do not believe that Yogācāra is idealism of any sort. The other by Saam Trivedi, Jay Garfield, and Sean Butler, who make overt comparisons to Immaneul Kant and George Berkley the West. None of these believes Yogācāra to be solipsism.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: What are the differences between Theravada Buddhism and Yogacara?

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Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 6:05 pm I think number 4 would be objected to by some and no one believes 5 at the level of institutional orthodoxy. Those who object to 4 would say that the external world might be real, but we only have access to it via the deceptive mind. Venerable Dharmakīrti wrote that treatise to reject 4 (and 5). The Wikipedia page SteRo linked to is abnormally well-written for Buddhist Wikipedia. In the section on "Interpretations of this doctrine," it goes through the two sides of the debate. One is represented by Kalupahana, Thomas Kochumuttom, Alex Wayman et al. These do not believe that Yogācāra is idealism of any sort. The other by Saam Trivedi, Jay Garfield, and Sean Butler, who make overt comparisons to Immaneul Kant and George Berkley the West. None of these believes Yogācāra to be solipsism.
An estimated 488 million (9-10% of the world's population) practice Buddhism in the 21st century AD. About half of them practice Mahayana schools in China, and it continues to flourish. 1. Do all this Buddhist believe that every person has consciousness, sensations, thoughts and emotions(individual.mindstreams)? 2. Do all this Buddhist believe that all people exist independently of their imaginations? Apart from Yogacara
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Re: What are the differences between Theravada Buddhism and Yogacara?

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Cool-team wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 6:42 pm 1. Do all this Buddhist believe that every person has consciousness, sensations, thoughts and emotions(individual.mindstreams)? 2. Do all this Buddhist believe that all people exist independently of their imaginations?
Who knows? You have to ask them. But let me ask you ... are you interested in buddhism or are you interested in speculations about buddhists?
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Re: What are the differences between Theravada Buddhism and Yogacara?

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SteRo wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:03 pm
Cool-team wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 6:42 pm 1. Do all this Buddhist believe that every person has consciousness, sensations, thoughts and emotions(individual.mindstreams)? 2. Do all this Buddhist believe that all people exist independently of their imaginations?
Who knows? You have to ask them. But let me ask you ... are you interested in buddhism or are you interested in speculations about buddhists?
I am interested in Buddhism. I am also interested in the doctrine of Buddhism, does it make people be solipsists or idealist?
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Re: What are the differences between Theravada Buddhism and Yogacara?

Post by SteRo »

Cool-team wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:09 pm
SteRo wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:03 pm
Cool-team wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 6:42 pm 1. Do all this Buddhist believe that every person has consciousness, sensations, thoughts and emotions(individual.mindstreams)? 2. Do all this Buddhist believe that all people exist independently of their imaginations?
Who knows? You have to ask them. But let me ask you ... are you interested in buddhism or are you interested in speculations about buddhists?
I am interested in Buddhism. I am also interested in the doctrine of Buddhism, does it make people be solipsists or idealist?
If you are interested then you have to get started and find out whether it makes you a solipsist or an idealist or neither. My guess is that if you approach buddhism correctly it's going to make you neither.
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Re: What are the differences between Theravada Buddhism and Yogacara?

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Cool-team wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:09 pm
SteRo wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:03 pm
Cool-team wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 6:42 pm 1. Do all this Buddhist believe that every person has consciousness, sensations, thoughts and emotions(individual.mindstreams)? 2. Do all this Buddhist believe that all people exist independently of their imaginations?
Who knows? You have to ask them. But let me ask you ... are you interested in buddhism or are you interested in speculations about buddhists?
I am interested in Buddhism. I am also interested in the doctrine of Buddhism, does it make people be solipsists or idealist?
The Buddha was neither of those, if by Idealism you mean immaterialism.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: What are the differences between Theravada Buddhism and Yogacara?

Post by Pulsar »

Coëmgenu wrote
Lots of people here uncritically hate
all kinds of Buddhism
that are actually practiced by real people in the real world, and so will say "yes" to any and all critique regardless the merit. You will encounter these people roaming the forums shouting misinformation, untruths, likely even lies, like "Buddhaghosa was a Hindu."
Lots of people here hating? do you believe this? I think a few make outrageous statements when they are hungering for attention. I don't think they really hate.
All the buddhists (including Theravadins) are they not supposed to be adherents to Metta sutta? which writes
"Let one not deceive another,
nor despise anyone anywhere"
Regarding Buddhaghosa was a hindu if this is true then Vasubandu would have to be a Hindu too... or at least they were both influenced by hinduistic notions (including Upanishad or whatever) of yogic meditation. Was not Alaya vinnana a modified version of Upanishadic beliefs? Buddhaghosa and Vasu firmly believed that Arupa Samapatthis lead to Nibbana. If they firmly understood how DO works, would they believe so?
Cessation has already occurred in 4th jhana?
By introducing these Upanishad influenced yogic methods on top of the Arupas, after the first cessation a second cessation was introduced. It is kind of dumb, is it not? as if Buddha first came up with a faulty cessation. How could Buddha make an error? 4th jhana was how he became enlightened. MN 4.

It is true that Arupas are written of, in some suttas in the canon, the portion that was influenced by
die hard brahmins that later became buddhists.
Why did Buddhaghosa and Vasu buy that? That may be why some call them Hindus.
But for that error, the culprits are a few sutta compilers themselves. Looks like Vasu and Buddhaghosa bought everything written in the canon, believing they were teachings of the Buddha.
But then again this is so unlike Vasu. It is said that Vasu and Mahayanists wrote their own suttas, because Vasu thought that Ananda did not remember all the teachings of the Buddha based on something he said MN 121?
Is this a fact or not? You seem to be very well informed regarding Mahayana. I am curious. What was the reason they came up with a new set of suttas?
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Re: What are the differences between Theravada Buddhism and Yogacara?

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Pulsar wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 8:10 pm Coëmgenu wrote
Lots of people here uncritically hate
all kinds of Buddhism
that are actually practiced by real people in the real world, and so will say "yes" to any and all critique regardless the merit. You will encounter these people roaming the forums shouting misinformation, untruths, likely even lies, like "Buddhaghosa was a Hindu."
Lots of people here hating? do you believe this?
...
Perhaps what Coëmgenu is referring to is the idea of "real, true, original Buddhism" and a discounting of pragmatic developments practised out in the world (Theravada or otherwise).

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Re: What are the differences between Theravada Buddhism and Yogacara?

Post by asahi »

Cool-team wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 6:42 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 6:05 pm I think number 4 would be objected to by some and no one believes 5 at the level of institutional orthodoxy. Those who object to 4 would say that the external world might be real, but we only have access to it via the deceptive mind. Venerable Dharmakīrti wrote that treatise to reject 4 (and 5). The Wikipedia page SteRo linked to is abnormally well-written for Buddhist Wikipedia. In the section on "Interpretations of this doctrine," it goes through the two sides of the debate. One is represented by Kalupahana, Thomas Kochumuttom, Alex Wayman et al. These do not believe that Yogācāra is idealism of any sort. The other by Saam Trivedi, Jay Garfield, and Sean Butler, who make overt comparisons to Immaneul Kant and George Berkley the West. None of these believes Yogācāra to be solipsism.
An estimated 488 million (9-10% of the world's population) practice Buddhism in the 21st century AD. About half of them practice Mahayana schools in China, and it continues to flourish. 1. Do all this Buddhist believe that every person has consciousness, sensations, thoughts and emotions(individual.mindstreams)? 2. Do all this Buddhist believe that all people exist independently of their imaginations? Apart from Yogacara
Yogacara appear to be saying , nothing is apart from the big mind .
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Re: What are the differences between Theravada Buddhism and Yogacara?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Pulsar wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 8:10 pmLots of people here hating? do you believe this? I think a few make outrageous statements when they are hungering for attention. I don't think they really hate.
I am aware that they could be trolling, but I have decided to take them at their word. There is simply too much bad faith conversation ubiquitous on this forum for me not to take people directly at their word. If I have to sit there second-guessing if someone is being sarcastic or completely unserious in their presentation of idiosyncratic autodidactic Adhamma and vitriolic slander of the sages, that is just too much a waste of my time. So I take people at their word and I take them seriously and I seriously believe that they believe what they type. If they were untruthful and misrepresenting themselves, I see that as on them, not me. I've simply decided to start believing what people say about themselves until they recant of saying such things. On terms of "Do you really believe this?" I believe it 100%. There are lots here with a hateful distain for the Saddharma. We can say "hate" or we can say "a derangement syndrome that comes out whenever someone mentions the 'wrong aspects' of the Dharma," those aspects hated by the deranged one who understands them not and thus rejects them, and causes said deranged one to enter into an automatic slandering episode.
mikenz66 wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:13 pmPerhaps what Coëmgenu is referring to is the idea of "real, true, original Buddhism" and a discounting of pragmatic developments practised out in the world (Theravada or otherwise).
I think I am talking about people wanting the Dharma to be X way, seeing that the reality is that it is Y way, and hating the Dharma for it, becoming deranged by this anger, and storming about vaingloriously announcing the Dharma to be X way and treating the true Y way as a heresy and abomination. Some people have dubious commitment to the truth and argue what they want to be the truth as the truth in an attempt to transform the truth. I think a lot of the constant autodidactic reinvention of the Buddha that happens on this forum is driven by this -- that autodidactic reinvention process that causes the birth of new perverted kinds of Buddhism that are neither Theravada nor Mahayana, nor are they any kind of revival of a historical dispensation. Instead of a kind of actual real Buddhism, such reinventions merely end up being over-personalized mush, like a microlabel that only applies to one who is so labelled. Even worse, there are a smaller number who I think have actually damaged their ability to recognize truth through their embracing of the inflation of their own egos. Truth, to these, is what brings intellectual pleasure and gratifies the ego. It gratifies the ego to have the Buddha agree with you, so they "make sure" he does. Instant gratification.

Now, I've also used a word people might not be familiar with: a microlabel. A microlabel is a deeply-personalized characterization of someone's sexual or gender identity that applies only to them and a few others. Being "moon-gendered" is a microlabel, being "arbosexual" is also a microlabel. I think that the various overly-individualized Buddhisms people generate out of the Pali suttas and other buddhavacana has an analogue in these microlabels, these over-particularized identities.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: What are the differences between Theravada Buddhism and Yogacara?

Post by mikenz66 »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 4:10 pm
mikenz66 wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:13 pmPerhaps what Coëmgenu is referring to is the idea of "real, true, original Buddhism" and a discounting of pragmatic developments practised out in the world (Theravada or otherwise).
I think I am talking about people wanting the Dharma to be X way, seeing that the reality is that it is Y way, and hating the Dharma for it, becoming deranged by this anger, and storming about vaingloriously announcing the Dharma to be X way and treating the true Y way as a heresy and abomination.
...
Yes, I guess my definition was too narrow... :tongue:

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Ceisiwr
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Re: What are the differences between Theravada Buddhism and Yogacara?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 4:10 pm arbosexual
:shock:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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