Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
GnosticMind
Posts: 128
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:16 pm

Re: Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?

Post by GnosticMind »

Dhammavudho was a highly regarded monk in South East Asia ( and he'd only just started teaching in Europe before his passing), and his stories of that temple sound, well...challenging and wearing...

As far as I know, Sumedho and Amaro et al were very close to the Chinese Mahayana Abbot and frequently visit each others' temples.



The place sounds like a military boot camp. Perhaps some people need or like that kind of training. Apparently so.
Last edited by GnosticMind on Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8151
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Well, let's not damn by association. That temple is one of the largest and most prolific AFAIK in all of the West. All sorts of Dharma Teachers have graced its halls to give all sorts of Dharma Talks, even Theravadin ones. The story is concerning, but I have heard similar stories from there before so perhaps I am less shocked.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
GnosticMind
Posts: 128
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:16 pm

Re: Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?

Post by GnosticMind »

Yes, I agree with you, and I admit I know nothing of the temple or the Mahayana abbot -- I am only going by Dhammavudho's ( negative) accounts, and, indeed, by Sumedho and Amaro's ( full of praise)

I have no inside info on any of them and am cautious with my words for that reason.

However -- some healthy skepticism is not a bad thing. It may even be useful.

( Slander and aspersion is quite another thing, and something I will not do)
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8151
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Supposedly Xuānhuà was a great dhyānin, his claim to fame during his life. After his death, his followers celebrated Xuānhuà's parinirvāṇa.

http://www.cttbusa.org/parinirvana/parinirvana.htm

These are allegedly the śarīradhātus (relics of mysterious substance) recovered from inside his body after his parinirvāṇa.
Attachments
allegedsariradhatus.JPG
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Auto,
auto wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:19 pm Yoga>Mahayana>Hinayana
Would you care to decode your shorthand for the benefit of those who use the English language?

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
auto
Posts: 4584
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?

Post by auto »

retrofuturist wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:16 pm Greetings Auto,
auto wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:19 pm Yoga>Mahayana>Hinayana
Would you care to decode your shorthand for the benefit of those who use the English language?

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
Traditions and their followers under hinayana won't accept any other vehicle.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22405
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:24 pm One of his more eccentric beliefs was that all homosexuals are secretly members of an esoteric religion of wickedness that has kept itself hitherto secret throughout the ages and is only revealing itself now in the "present day" of the 1980s.
:spy:

:twisted:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
GnosticMind
Posts: 128
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:16 pm

Re: Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?

Post by GnosticMind »

''Supposedly Xuānhuà was a great dhyānin, his claim to fame during his life. After his death, his followers celebrated Xuānhuà's parinirvāṇa.''

I am curious to know how they knew their abbot was enlightened? Or was it a claim the abbot made about himself? That is quite some claim to make -- I am not suggesting beings cannot become enlightened -- but it is still quite some claim to make, especially so, if they expect people to take that claim for fact, axiomatically. Why should anyone just take that claim on face value uncritically?

The more I hear about that group, the more my skeptical radar go into alert...

I'd call that healthy skepticism...

I may well be wrong , of course -- I am entirely open to hearing from others who feel committed to the place and their teachings and their abbot.
GnosticMind
Posts: 128
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:16 pm

Re: Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?

Post by GnosticMind »

Auto wrote "Traditions and their followers under hinayana won't accept any other vehicle."

Wrong -- I am devoted to Theravada, and have been seriously on the path for most of my adult life -- and I accept and love and respect many other teachings.

Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu, many Mahayana Sutras, Islamic Tasawuuf and Tazkiyah al nafs, Mandeanism, Descartes, Spinoza, Heraclitus and Marcus Aurelius....and that's just a start...

And why call us hinayana? In what way is Theravada a 'small or lesser vehicle?'
GnosticMind
Posts: 128
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:16 pm

Re: Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?

Post by GnosticMind »

Ajahn Dhammavudho, a scholarly, reflective and sincere man ( in my view), discusses his journey from Mahayana to Theravada -- he speaks well --

auto
Posts: 4584
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?

Post by auto »

GnosticMind wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:44 pm Auto wrote "Traditions and their followers under hinayana won't accept any other vehicle."

Wrong -- I am devoted to Theravada, and have been seriously on the path for most of my adult life -- and I accept and love and respect many other teachings.

Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu, many Mahayana Sutras, Islamic Tasawuuf and Tazkiyah al nafs, Mandeanism, Descartes, Spinoza, Heraclitus and Marcus Aurelius....and that's just a start...

And why call us hinayana? In what way is Theravada a 'small or lesser vehicle?'
It's a well known meme. Hinayana consists of those who know body(kāya) is not their self but still regard it as their self - Someone who thinks self doesn't exist or can't be found and it just being conventional means of expression.

And someone called in this thread Mahayana heretical. But heretical is to think what is going to be realized is realized just now, a fresh, first time.
GnosticMind
Posts: 128
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:16 pm

Re: Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?

Post by GnosticMind »

''It's a well known meme. Hinayana consists of those who know body(kāya) is not their self but still regard it as their self - Someone who thinks self doesn't exist or can't be found and it just being conventional means of expression.''

You shouldn't be going by 'well known memes' -- well known to whom? And how do you know that Thervadins hold that view of self-no self? How could you possibly know that?

Give people more credit that to put them in a box and category -- people are far, far more multifaceted than your 'meme' and cliché suggest.
auto
Posts: 4584
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?

Post by auto »

GnosticMind wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:47 pm ..
Ok
User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 6492
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun

Re: Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?

Post by Dhammanando »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:24 pm Their founder believed that the heavens punish humanity for societal ills collectively committed by humans.
I don't think this is an example of eccentricity on Master Hua's part - it's a pan-Buddhist teaching. In Pali sources we find it, for example, in the Buddha's interpretation of the tenth of King Pasenadi's sixteen dreams in that great anti-socialist tract, the Mahāsupina Jātaka.
“Tell me your tenth dream.”

“Methought, sir, I saw rice boiling in a pot without getting done. By not getting done, I mean that it looked as though it were sharply marked off and kept apart, so that the cooking went on in three distinct stages. For part was sodden, part hard and raw, and part just cooked to a nicety. This was my tenth dream. What shall come of it?”

“This dream too shall not have its fulfilment till the future. For in days to come kings shall grow unrighteous; the people surrounding the kings shall grow unrighteous too, as also shall brahmins and householders, townsmen, and countryfolk; yes, all people alike shall grow unrighteous, not excepting even sages and brahmins. Next, their very tutelary deities—the spirits to whom they offer sacrifice, the spirits of the trees, and the spirits of the air—shall become unrighteous also. The very winds that blow over the realms of these unrighteous kings shall grow cruel and lawless; they shall shake the mansions of the skies and thereby kindle the anger of the spirits that dwell there, so that they will not suffer rain to fall—or, if it does rain, it shall not fall on all the kingdom at once, nor shall the kindly shower fall on all tilled or sown lands alike to help them in their need. And, as in the kingdom at large, so in each several district and village and over each separate pool or lake, the rain shall not fall at one and the same time on its whole expanse; if it rain on the upper part, it shall not rain upon the lower; here the crops shall be spoiled by a heavy downpour, there wither for very drought, and here again thrive apace with kindly showers to water them. So the crops sown within the confines of a single kingdom—like the rice in the one pot—shall have no uniform character. Howbeit, you have nothing to fear therefrom. Tell me your eleventh dream.”
https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/ja77
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8151
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?

Post by Coëmgenu »

It strikes me that this opens up a dialogue on whether the external world is the fruition of karma or not, bhante. Is the destruction of the world-system caused by the wicked actions of unfortunate beings in it or does it just coincide with them? Venerable Vasubandhu refers to the world as a kind of "shared karma." I've never read the section in question, but I had believed that in Kathavatthu there was a debate with Andhrakas who thought that the external world was determined by karma and the Theravadins rejected this.

EDIT: I see now you were referring to the aerial spirits as "heavens" I think, unless I'm wrong. I read you wrong, thought the passage was leading to a destruction of the world-system by wind, and hence my above post. I think he meant "heaven" in the sense of "the deity/divinity Heaven" worshipped by the Chinese, not "the heavens" in the sense of "the various levels of airs in the skies," but I see the connection your post is pointing out and that "the various levels of airs in the skies" is a very traditional Buddhist reading of "the heavens" that we can expect he might use.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Post Reply