Dhammavudho was a highly regarded monk in South East Asia ( and he'd only just started teaching in Europe before his passing), and his stories of that temple sound, well...challenging and wearing...
As far as I know, Sumedho and Amaro et al were very close to the Chinese Mahayana Abbot and frequently visit each others' temples.
The place sounds like a military boot camp. Perhaps some people need or like that kind of training. Apparently so.
Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?
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Re: Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?
Last edited by GnosticMind on Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?
Well, let's not damn by association. That temple is one of the largest and most prolific AFAIK in all of the West. All sorts of Dharma Teachers have graced its halls to give all sorts of Dharma Talks, even Theravadin ones. The story is concerning, but I have heard similar stories from there before so perhaps I am less shocked.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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- Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:16 pm
Re: Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?
Yes, I agree with you, and I admit I know nothing of the temple or the Mahayana abbot -- I am only going by Dhammavudho's ( negative) accounts, and, indeed, by Sumedho and Amaro's ( full of praise)
I have no inside info on any of them and am cautious with my words for that reason.
However -- some healthy skepticism is not a bad thing. It may even be useful.
( Slander and aspersion is quite another thing, and something I will not do)
I have no inside info on any of them and am cautious with my words for that reason.
However -- some healthy skepticism is not a bad thing. It may even be useful.
( Slander and aspersion is quite another thing, and something I will not do)
Re: Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?
Supposedly Xuānhuà was a great dhyānin, his claim to fame during his life. After his death, his followers celebrated Xuānhuà's parinirvāṇa.
http://www.cttbusa.org/parinirvana/parinirvana.htm
These are allegedly the śarīradhātus (relics of mysterious substance) recovered from inside his body after his parinirvāṇa.
http://www.cttbusa.org/parinirvana/parinirvana.htm
These are allegedly the śarīradhātus (relics of mysterious substance) recovered from inside his body after his parinirvāṇa.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
- retrofuturist
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Re: Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?
Greetings Auto,
Metta,
Paul.
Would you care to decode your shorthand for the benefit of those who use the English language?
Metta,
Paul.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?
Traditions and their followers under hinayana won't accept any other vehicle.retrofuturist wrote: ↑Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:16 pm Greetings Auto,
Would you care to decode your shorthand for the benefit of those who use the English language?
Metta,
Paul.
Re: Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?
''Supposedly Xuānhuà was a great dhyānin, his claim to fame during his life. After his death, his followers celebrated Xuānhuà's parinirvāṇa.''
I am curious to know how they knew their abbot was enlightened? Or was it a claim the abbot made about himself? That is quite some claim to make -- I am not suggesting beings cannot become enlightened -- but it is still quite some claim to make, especially so, if they expect people to take that claim for fact, axiomatically. Why should anyone just take that claim on face value uncritically?
The more I hear about that group, the more my skeptical radar go into alert...
I'd call that healthy skepticism...
I may well be wrong , of course -- I am entirely open to hearing from others who feel committed to the place and their teachings and their abbot.
I am curious to know how they knew their abbot was enlightened? Or was it a claim the abbot made about himself? That is quite some claim to make -- I am not suggesting beings cannot become enlightened -- but it is still quite some claim to make, especially so, if they expect people to take that claim for fact, axiomatically. Why should anyone just take that claim on face value uncritically?
The more I hear about that group, the more my skeptical radar go into alert...
I'd call that healthy skepticism...
I may well be wrong , of course -- I am entirely open to hearing from others who feel committed to the place and their teachings and their abbot.
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Re: Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?
Auto wrote "Traditions and their followers under hinayana won't accept any other vehicle."
Wrong -- I am devoted to Theravada, and have been seriously on the path for most of my adult life -- and I accept and love and respect many other teachings.
Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu, many Mahayana Sutras, Islamic Tasawuuf and Tazkiyah al nafs, Mandeanism, Descartes, Spinoza, Heraclitus and Marcus Aurelius....and that's just a start...
And why call us hinayana? In what way is Theravada a 'small or lesser vehicle?'
Wrong -- I am devoted to Theravada, and have been seriously on the path for most of my adult life -- and I accept and love and respect many other teachings.
Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu, many Mahayana Sutras, Islamic Tasawuuf and Tazkiyah al nafs, Mandeanism, Descartes, Spinoza, Heraclitus and Marcus Aurelius....and that's just a start...
And why call us hinayana? In what way is Theravada a 'small or lesser vehicle?'
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Re: Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?
Ajahn Dhammavudho, a scholarly, reflective and sincere man ( in my view), discusses his journey from Mahayana to Theravada -- he speaks well --
Re: Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?
It's a well known meme. Hinayana consists of those who know body(kāya) is not their self but still regard it as their self - Someone who thinks self doesn't exist or can't be found and it just being conventional means of expression.GnosticMind wrote: ↑Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:44 pm Auto wrote "Traditions and their followers under hinayana won't accept any other vehicle."
Wrong -- I am devoted to Theravada, and have been seriously on the path for most of my adult life -- and I accept and love and respect many other teachings.
Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu, many Mahayana Sutras, Islamic Tasawuuf and Tazkiyah al nafs, Mandeanism, Descartes, Spinoza, Heraclitus and Marcus Aurelius....and that's just a start...
And why call us hinayana? In what way is Theravada a 'small or lesser vehicle?'
And someone called in this thread Mahayana heretical. But heretical is to think what is going to be realized is realized just now, a fresh, first time.
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Re: Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?
''It's a well known meme. Hinayana consists of those who know body(kāya) is not their self but still regard it as their self - Someone who thinks self doesn't exist or can't be found and it just being conventional means of expression.''
You shouldn't be going by 'well known memes' -- well known to whom? And how do you know that Thervadins hold that view of self-no self? How could you possibly know that?
Give people more credit that to put them in a box and category -- people are far, far more multifaceted than your 'meme' and cliché suggest.
You shouldn't be going by 'well known memes' -- well known to whom? And how do you know that Thervadins hold that view of self-no self? How could you possibly know that?
Give people more credit that to put them in a box and category -- people are far, far more multifaceted than your 'meme' and cliché suggest.
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Re: Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?
I don't think this is an example of eccentricity on Master Hua's part - it's a pan-Buddhist teaching. In Pali sources we find it, for example, in the Buddha's interpretation of the tenth of King Pasenadi's sixteen dreams in that great anti-socialist tract, the Mahāsupina Jātaka.
https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/ja77“Tell me your tenth dream.”
“Methought, sir, I saw rice boiling in a pot without getting done. By not getting done, I mean that it looked as though it were sharply marked off and kept apart, so that the cooking went on in three distinct stages. For part was sodden, part hard and raw, and part just cooked to a nicety. This was my tenth dream. What shall come of it?”
“This dream too shall not have its fulfilment till the future. For in days to come kings shall grow unrighteous; the people surrounding the kings shall grow unrighteous too, as also shall brahmins and householders, townsmen, and countryfolk; yes, all people alike shall grow unrighteous, not excepting even sages and brahmins. Next, their very tutelary deities—the spirits to whom they offer sacrifice, the spirits of the trees, and the spirits of the air—shall become unrighteous also. The very winds that blow over the realms of these unrighteous kings shall grow cruel and lawless; they shall shake the mansions of the skies and thereby kindle the anger of the spirits that dwell there, so that they will not suffer rain to fall—or, if it does rain, it shall not fall on all the kingdom at once, nor shall the kindly shower fall on all tilled or sown lands alike to help them in their need. And, as in the kingdom at large, so in each several district and village and over each separate pool or lake, the rain shall not fall at one and the same time on its whole expanse; if it rain on the upper part, it shall not rain upon the lower; here the crops shall be spoiled by a heavy downpour, there wither for very drought, and here again thrive apace with kindly showers to water them. So the crops sown within the confines of a single kingdom—like the rice in the one pot—shall have no uniform character. Howbeit, you have nothing to fear therefrom. Tell me your eleventh dream.”
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
Re: Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?
It strikes me that this opens up a dialogue on whether the external world is the fruition of karma or not, bhante. Is the destruction of the world-system caused by the wicked actions of unfortunate beings in it or does it just coincide with them? Venerable Vasubandhu refers to the world as a kind of "shared karma." I've never read the section in question, but I had believed that in Kathavatthu there was a debate with Andhrakas who thought that the external world was determined by karma and the Theravadins rejected this.
EDIT: I see now you were referring to the aerial spirits as "heavens" I think, unless I'm wrong. I read you wrong, thought the passage was leading to a destruction of the world-system by wind, and hence my above post. I think he meant "heaven" in the sense of "the deity/divinity Heaven" worshipped by the Chinese, not "the heavens" in the sense of "the various levels of airs in the skies," but I see the connection your post is pointing out and that "the various levels of airs in the skies" is a very traditional Buddhist reading of "the heavens" that we can expect he might use.
EDIT: I see now you were referring to the aerial spirits as "heavens" I think, unless I'm wrong. I read you wrong, thought the passage was leading to a destruction of the world-system by wind, and hence my above post. I think he meant "heaven" in the sense of "the deity/divinity Heaven" worshipped by the Chinese, not "the heavens" in the sense of "the various levels of airs in the skies," but I see the connection your post is pointing out and that "the various levels of airs in the skies" is a very traditional Buddhist reading of "the heavens" that we can expect he might use.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.