Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Re: Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?

Post by form »

This I read that it was not even written in Indian. Must likely written by Chinese.
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Re: Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?

Post by DNS »

form wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:11 pm This I read that it was not even written in Indian. Must likely written by Chinese.
Yes, definitely not written in Indian, especially since there is no language known as Indian. :tongue: (Just as there is no language known as Ethiopian or Cuban or Guatemalan, etc) I assume you meant written in Indian language.
A Sanskrit language palm leaf manuscript consisting of 226 leaves with 6 leaves missing which according to the introduction "contains the Śūraṅgama Sūtra" was discovered in a temple in China; it has yet to be verified.[3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9A%C5 ... S%C5%ABtra
So most likely Chinese origin, although based on the above, it may have originated in India as mostly an oral tradition before being written down in Chinese.
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Re: Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?

Post by Disciple »

Instead of asking that question, put the mahayana teachings into practice, and verify for yourself if they are real or not.
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Re: Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Disciple wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:24 pm Instead of asking that question, put the mahayana teachings into practice, and verify for yourself if they are real or not.
Or, alternatively, put the Buddha's teachings into practice and discard such heresy.

Each to their own, I guess.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?

Post by Disciple »

retrofuturist wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:26 am Greetings,
Disciple wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:24 pm Instead of asking that question, put the mahayana teachings into practice, and verify for yourself if they are real or not.
Or, alternatively, put the Buddha's teachings into practice and discard such heresy.

Each to their own, I guess.

Metta,
Paul. :)
:lol:

For you they could be heresy, for others they could be a valid source of teachings that have helped them attain realization. Yes to each their own.
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Re: Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?

Post by form »

DNS wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:49 pm
form wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:11 pm This I read that it was not even written in Indian. Must likely written by Chinese.
Yes, definitely not written in Indian, especially since there is no language known as Indian. :tongue: (Just as there is no language known as Ethiopian or Cuban or Guatemalan, etc) I assume you meant written in Indian language.
A Sanskrit language palm leaf manuscript consisting of 226 leaves with 6 leaves missing which according to the introduction "contains the Śūraṅgama Sūtra" was discovered in a temple in China; it has yet to be verified.[3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9A%C5 ... S%C5%ABtra
So most likely Chinese origin, although based on the above, it may have originated in India as mostly an oral tradition before being written down in Chinese.
I meant not originated from India. It's description on Seers based on fox spirits is a telling sign to me. That is Chinese folk belief that fox are cunning and clever that is capable of spiritual training to become human shape in 500-1000years and progress further upwards with the training duration.
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Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?

Post by GnosticMind »

I don't know if they are 'real' -- some of the justifications and 'proofs' the Mahayanists put forward seem highly suspect to me if taken in literal terms -- I have heard some tales about certain Sutras being hidden in underground, undersea caves and then salvaged by a dragon and so on -- but those prisms on texts may well have mythic value in a Jungian sense and have meaning for humanity in a far deeper psychological, or anthropoligical sense -- the Mahayana Sutras certainly are rewarding and I find them to be a good support to Theravada practice in places - I refer to Tseng Tsan's 'One Believing in Mind' all the time ( other Mahayana Sutras can also be a joy in terms of literary achievement at least -- Avatamsaka Sutra is an extraordinary literary work in its own right)

The Third Patriarch of Zen

Hsin Hsin Ming by Seng-T'san

The Great Way is not difficult
for those who have no preferences.
When love and hate are both absent
everything becomes clear and undisguised.
Make the smallest distinction, however,
and heaven and earth are set infinitely apart.

If you wish to see the truth
then hold no opinions for or against anything.
To set up what you like against what you dislike
is the disease of the mind.
When the deep meaning of things is not understood,
the mind's essential peace is disturbed to no avail.

The Way is perfect like vast space
where nothing is lacking and nothing in excess.
Indeed, it is due to our choosing to accept or reject
that we do not see the true nature of things.

Live neither in the entanglements of outer things,
nor in inner feelings of emptiness.
Be serene in the oneness of things and such
erroneous views will disappear by themselves.

When you try to stop activity by passivity
your very effort fills you with activity.
As long as you remain in one extreme or the other
you will never know Oneness.

Those who do not live in the single Way
fail in both activity and passivity,
assertion and denial.
To deny the reality of things
is to miss their reality;
To assert the emptiness of things
is to miss their reality.

The more you talk and think about it,
the further astray you wander from the truth.
Stop talking and thinking,
and there is nothing you will not be able to know.

To return to the root is to find meaning,
but to pursue appearances is to miss the source.
At the moment of inner enlightenment
there is a going beyond appearance and emptiness.
The changes that appear to occur in the empty world
we call real only because of our ignorance.

Do not search for the truth;
only cease to cherish opinions.
do not remain in the dualistic state.
Avoid such pursuits carefully.
If there is even a trace of this and that,
of right and wrong,
the mind-essence ewill be lost in confusion.

Although all dualities come from the One,
do not be attached even to this One.
When the mind exists undisturbed in the Way,
nothing in the world can offend.
And when a thing can no longer offend,
it ceases to exist in the old way.

When no discriminating thoughts arise,
the old mind ceases to exist.
When thought objects vanish,
the thinking-subject vanishes:
As when the mind vanishes, objects vanish.

https://www.age-of-the-sage.org/buddhis ... h_zen.html


The now deceased Bhikkhu Dhammavuddho is brilliant on these points --

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... n+mahayana

He was a Mahayana monk who changed course to Theravada.
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Re: Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?

Post by Disciple »

The main thing is to be happy with one's own practice and not to be so judgemental of others. Live and let live, right?
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Re: Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Disciple wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:07 am The main thing is to be happy with one's own practice and not to be so judgemental of others. Live and let live, right?
By what standard is this? Don't let a penchant for avoidance and/or political correctness obscure the Buddha's teachings...
AN 2.23 wrote:"Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains what was not said or spoken by the Tathagata as said or spoken by the Tathagata. And he who explains what was said or spoken by the Tathagata as not said or spoken by the Tathagata. These are two who slander the Tathagata."
Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?

Post by GnosticMind »

Ven Dhammavudho ( recently deceased) was a Malay-Chinese monk, who originally devoted his life to Mahayana practice and Sutras, and ordained at The City of Ten Thousand Buddhas -- he soon changed his mind about Mahayana after his experiences there --



a salutary reminder of healthy skepticism perhaps...

( I am not casting aspersions about The City of Ten Thousand Buddhas -- I know nothing about them, but I am willing to listen to Dhammavudho's views)
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Re: Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?

Post by Coëmgenu »

GnosticMind wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:14 amThe City of Ten Thousand Buddhas [...] I am not casting aspersions about The City of Ten Thousand Buddhas -- I know nothing about them, but I am willing to listen to Dhammavudho's views
Their founder believed that the heavens punish humanity for societal ills collectively committed by humans. He also believed that mindstreams can split into many pieces and that one person can be reincarnated as a field of grass or a swarm of flies and vice-versa, beliefs utterly beyond the pale for any kind of normal mainstream Buddhism. One of his more eccentric beliefs was that all homosexuals are secretly members of an esoteric religion of wickedness that has kept itself hitherto secret throughout the ages and is only revealing itself now in the "present day" of the 1980s.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?

Post by GnosticMind »

Some of the leaders of the UK Ajahn Chah lineage Sangha were very close to the Head Monk of that temple.

https://www.google.com/search?q=ajahn+s ... 38&biw=911

Ven Dhammavudho had a very bad experience there -- it's in the videos.
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Re: Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?

Post by auto »

Yoga>Mahayana>Hinayana
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Re: Are the Mahāyāna "sutras" such as Shurangama Sutra real Buddha's teaching?

Post by Coëmgenu »

GnosticMind wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:39 pmSome of the leaders of the UK Ajahn Chah lineage Sangha were very close to the Head Monk of that temple.

https://www.google.com/search?q=ajahn+s ... 38&biw=911

Ven Dhammavudho had a very bad experience there -- it's in the videos.
He is very careful not to name Xuānhuà directly as the abbott, but also says he later learned the abbot was up to some sort of occultism that made it difficult for him to look non-occultists in the eyes because they will notice something unspecified about them. Very strange. From the story, if Ven Dhammavuddho was truly practicing so purely, likely Xuānhuà was simply ashamed when Ven Dhammavuddho met his gaze during an improper dressing-down. But perhaps he was a witch of some sort too. Who knows?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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