Jesus is the Only Way?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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cappuccino
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Re: Jesus is the Only Way?

Post by cappuccino »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:19 am If I say, "and you have," does that make you a pigeon?

You don't need to answer if you don't want to. It was a purely rhetorical question. Anyways, I wish you well.
Beware straw man argument
Last edited by cappuccino on Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:44 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Tutareture
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Re: Jesus is the Only Way?

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Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:10 am "Don't play chess with pigeons," said Coëmgenu with futility. They'll just knock the pieces off the board and defecate on the table. That's how a pigeon wins a game of chess. It's not their fault. They don't, can't, know any better. Yet isn't the very act of logging into an open web forum, with any and all manner of people present, consenting to chess with all the pigeons, no matter how many people might also be milling about?
All you say is that I don't understand buddhism,but you don't show how I fail to understand it.you even rejected abhidharma lol
I am a Toscano Italian (well,also half African american and part Choctaw native american)Ethiopian Tewahedo christian exploring Buddhism.Just looking for friendly Philosophical discussion.
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cappuccino
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Re: Jesus is the Only Way?

Post by cappuccino »

Tutareture wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:21 am All you say is that I don't understand buddhism, but you don't show how I fail to understand it.
your focus on God obscures the scenery of Buddhism


hence you do not even focus on the scenery
"All men's souls are immortal, but the souls of the righteous are immortal and divine." -Socrates
Good for Your Soul
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Tutareture
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Re: Jesus is the Only Way?

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cappuccino wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:31 am
Tutareture wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:21 am All you say is that I don't understand buddhism, but you don't show how I fail to understand it.
your focus on God obscures the scenery of Buddhism


hence you do not even focus on the scenery
if numerous arguments prove God exists,and if numerous arguments can disprove kshanabhanga and dependant origination,why should I believe in buddhism?
I am a Toscano Italian (well,also half African american and part Choctaw native american)Ethiopian Tewahedo christian exploring Buddhism.Just looking for friendly Philosophical discussion.
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cappuccino
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Re: Jesus is the Only Way?

Post by cappuccino »

Tutareture wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:32 am why should I believe in buddhism?
the end of suffering and stress
Last edited by cappuccino on Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:54 am, edited 3 times in total.
"All men's souls are immortal, but the souls of the righteous are immortal and divine." -Socrates
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Jesus is the Only Way?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Tutareture wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:21 ambut you don't show how I fail to understand it.you even rejected abhidharma lol
I told you your version of kṣaṇikavāda is a fool's version of that doctrine. It makes no sense. No wonder you reject it. I asked you if you imagined a classical void between the moments, because that maybe is the root of your misunderstanding, but you never responded to that. As for "rejecting Abhidharma," one school's Abhidharma is not the be all and end all of the Dharma. I follow different Abhidharma jurisprudences than what you are familiar with clearly.
Seated in solitude, the body and the mind are made calm and pure.
Moved by serenity, they act for each others' salvation.
The nature of the mind, like this, is alien to all corruption
when the body, as it should, sits at peace.

(T848.46b23 Vairocana Sūtra)
Agnikan
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Re: Jesus is the Only Way?

Post by Agnikan »

DNS wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 2:38 am Even if the story is real; that there was a monk from Myanmar that made these claims, that wouldn't make it true. People make up NDE stories all the time, for various reasons, including, but not limited to:

1. To promote their new found religion.
2. For fame, recognition, and respect among practitioners of their new found religion.
3. To sell books, go on speaking tours, book signings, TED talks, etc, to make lots of money.

In the U.S. there are numerous bestselling NDE books. If you look at the authors' backgrounds, you can find some commonalities, for example, no prior bestselling books, failed at their careers or previous profession. Some were doctors, playwrights, attorneys and various other professions, but for various reasons were not that successful, could not make bestsellers list and then when they write about their supposed NDE, all of a sudden shoot to the tops of the bestsellers list.

There was one NDE bestseller book not too long ago written by an MD, neurosurgeon, I believe. I looked up his bio and sure enough he was not successful, had some malpractice lawsuits against him and even had his medical license revoked. Then he hit it big financially, thanks to his story becoming a bestseller. Some people are so gullible.
Are you saying that all, or most, NDE accounts are from people with those three main motivations?
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Re: Jesus is the Only Way?

Post by DNS »

Agnikan wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:41 pm Are you saying that all, or most, NDE accounts are from people with those three main motivations?
One of those reasons or all of the above. But there may be a small percent who really did see something in their NDE; it may have been a dream state or some other subconscious thinking coming through.
4GreatHeavenlyKings
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Re: Jesus is the Only Way?

Post by 4GreatHeavenlyKings »

Tutareture wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:32 am
cappuccino wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:31 am
Tutareture wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:21 am All you say is that I don't understand buddhism, but you don't show how I fail to understand it.
your focus on God obscures the scenery of Buddhism


hence you do not even focus on the scenery
if numerous arguments prove God exists,and if numerous arguments can disprove kshanabhanga and dependant origination,why should I believe in buddhism?
1. Many arguments have been advanced in favour of an uncreated creator god's existence; many arguments have been advanced against an uncreated creator god's existence. Buddhists like I am (no say nothing about atheists and Jains) regard the arguments against an uncreated creator god's existence as better that contrary arguments, which to us make no sense. Indeed, the general intellectual bankruptcy of arguments in favour of uncreated creator gods is suggested by the fact that Tutareture's argument in favour of an uncreated creator god refuted and was contracted by his Christian faith (as may be read here viewtopic.php?f=16&t=39726&p=614874#p614874, and as he did not refute).

2. kshanabhanga is not essential to Buddhism. Buddhists like I am reject it but are still guided by the three jewels. For this reason, refuting kshanabhanga is only refuting a portion of Buddhist doctrines rather than refuting all of Buddhism. It is just like refuting the claim that Jesus's resurrection was accompanied by a resurrection of other dead people in Jerusalem who went into the streets from their tombs and appeared to many (as is found in the Christians' scriptures: Matthew 27: 52-53) does not refute all of Christianity (or so the Christian apologist Mike Licona attempted to argue).

3. If dependant origination can be disproven, then Buddhism is exposed as false. But what are those arguments? I think that dependant origination makes much more sense than positing any uncreated creator god - because we can easily perceive things arising in dependence upon other things and deduce that things arise likewise even when they are unperceived by us, but an uncreated creator god is extraordinarily violating of these commonsensical observations and deductions.
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cappuccino
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Re: Jesus is the Only Way?

Post by cappuccino »

DNS wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:00 pm But there may be a small percent who really did see something in their NDE
"All men's souls are immortal, but the souls of the righteous are immortal and divine." -Socrates
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plabit
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Re: Jesus is the Only Way?

Post by plabit »

Tutareture wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:32 am
cappuccino wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:31 am
Tutareture wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:21 am All you say is that I don't understand buddhism, but you don't show how I fail to understand it.
your focus on God obscures the scenery of Buddhism


hence you do not even focus on the scenery
if numerous arguments prove God exists,and if numerous arguments can disprove kshanabhanga and dependant origination,why should I believe in buddhism?
The interpretation that dependent origination is supposed to explain creation is obviously false but has become standard in Buddhism precisely because it is false, like the doctrine of original sin as in inherited guilt is obviously false but became standard in Christianity precisely because of its falsity. "It is absurd so it must be true" is the thinking that led to both becoming accepted in their respective religions. It seems clear to me dependent origination originally just meant dependent on not breaking out of the cycle of reincarnation you keep getting reincarnated or a new incarnation arises dependent on you not having achieved moksha yet. Momentariness is obviously just a corolary from the false understanding, as Augustine's idea that unbaptized infants go to hell was a corolary from the false interpretation of Romans 5 as teaching original sin in the sense of inherited guilt. But if you recognize this in either religion you become an outcast and a sole practitioner in most places it seems.
plabit
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Re: Jesus is the Only Way?

Post by plabit »

plabit wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:16 pm...or a new incarnation arises dependent on you not having achieved moksha yet.
I'm going to go ahead and preempt the infinitely predictible "moksha is a Hindu concept" comment I know is coming, and point out that in the Pali canon its just spelled differently, i.e. mokkha, because of how Pali spellings differ from Sanskrit.
4GreatHeavenlyKings
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Re: Jesus is the Only Way?

Post by 4GreatHeavenlyKings »

plabit wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:16 pm
Tutareture wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:32 am
cappuccino wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:31 am

your focus on God obscures the scenery of Buddhism


hence you do not even focus on the scenery
if numerous arguments prove God exists,and if numerous arguments can disprove kshanabhanga and dependant origination,why should I believe in buddhism?
The interpretation that dependent origination is supposed to explain creation is obviously false but has become standard in Buddhism precisely because it is false, like the doctrine of original sin as in inherited guilt is obviously false but became standard in Christianity precisely because of its falsity. "It is absurd so it must be true" is the thinking that led to both becoming accepted in their respective religions. It seems clear to me dependent origination originally just meant dependent on not breaking out of the cycle of reincarnation you keep getting reincarnated or a new incarnation arises dependent on you not having achieved moksha yet. Momentariness is obviously just a corolary from the false understanding, as Augustine's idea that unbaptized infants go to hell was a corolary from the false interpretation of Romans 5 as teaching original sin in the sense of inherited guilt. But if you recognize this in either religion you become an outcast and a sole practitioner in most places it seems.
1. Why do you think that dependant origination is not meant to explain creation?

2. Why do you think that dependant origination's explaining creation is absurd? We all perceive things arising in dependence upon other things.
plabit
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Re: Jesus is the Only Way?

Post by plabit »

4GreatHeavenlyKings wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:40 am
plabit wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:16 pm
Tutareture wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:32 am

if numerous arguments prove God exists,and if numerous arguments can disprove kshanabhanga and dependant origination,why should I believe in buddhism?
The interpretation that dependent origination is supposed to explain creation is obviously false but has become standard in Buddhism precisely because it is false, like the doctrine of original sin as in inherited guilt is obviously false but became standard in Christianity precisely because of its falsity. "It is absurd so it must be true" is the thinking that led to both becoming accepted in their respective religions. It seems clear to me dependent origination originally just meant dependent on not breaking out of the cycle of reincarnation you keep getting reincarnated or a new incarnation arises dependent on you not having achieved moksha yet. Momentariness is obviously just a corolary from the false understanding, as Augustine's idea that unbaptized infants go to hell was a corolary from the false interpretation of Romans 5 as teaching original sin in the sense of inherited guilt. But if you recognize this in either religion you become an outcast and a sole practitioner in most places it seems.
1. Why do you think that dependant origination is not meant to explain creation?
The question ought to be posed at you for why you think it is, because from what I understand the commentaries actually say its only about rebirth. But I can't cite where as my knowledge of them is second hand from monks who say so.

But to try to answer your silly question, the suttas that talk about dependent origination don't say its meant to explain creation and clearly show its meant to say why you keep being reborn.

Also the things in the 12 link chain teaching are not the sun and the moon and the planets and such, but things personal like ignorance, mental formations, consciousness, psycho-physicality, six-sense-base, sense-contact, feelings, cravings, clinging, becoming, birth, aging. In fact, did I not just list them all? Yet No rocks, rivers, trees, etc.

Nor is it explaining even how the things it lists first came to be but only why they keep coming back.
4GreatHeavenlyKings wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:40 am 2. Why do you think that dependant origination's explaining creation is absurd? We all perceive things arising in dependence upon other things.
First, there is the absurdity of holding an interpretation that is impossible upon a proper reading of the text. Second, there is the abaurdity of pureposefully positing an infinite regress just to avoid an uncomfortable idea.
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Re: Jesus is the Only Way?

Post by befriend »

If earth is impermanent why wouldnt heaven be impermanent? It would run by the same rules because it's in the same cosmos. If your suffered greatly from Christian teachings remember to have happiness heaven on this earth by creating good mind good body good speech and avoiding bad mind body and speech this is heaven on earth. When you feel the teachings you won't worry about anything else. I'm sorry for the tampering of your mind. Just keep doing good.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
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