Jesus is the Only Way?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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cappuccino
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Re: Jesus is the Only Way?

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Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:49 am If you want to believe in the eternal material reality of the glorified bodies of the Christians, that is your prerogative. It is an awfully rosy and optimistic afterlife, like in Amidism.
The Fine-Material World (rupa-loka)
Dweller
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Re: Jesus is the Only Way?

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There is somewhere in the Canon described how worshippers of Mahabrahma (self-proclaimed creator god) sometimes have memories of previous lives and establish worship of him when they get reborn in lower realms.

Maybe even something about worshippers from lower realms joining others when they get reborn in deva realms.

But I can't remember correctly.
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Re: Jesus is the Only Way?

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Dweller wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:16 pm But I can't remember
Brahmajāla Sutta: The All-embracing Net of Views
4GreatHeavenlyKings
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Re: Jesus is the Only Way?

Post by 4GreatHeavenlyKings »

The Brahma-nimantanika Sutta ( MN 49 PTS: M i 326: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html) is another interesting discussion of deluded gods thinking that they are omnipotent and convincing lesser gods that they are so.
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Re: Jesus is the Only Way?

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cappuccino wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:11 pm
Dweller wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:16 pm But I can't remember
Brahmajāla Sutta: The All-embracing Net of Views
Yes, that's it. Thanks.

Interesting how Mahabrahma calls himself Father, Almighty, Lord and with other names also common for creator god in Abrahamic religions.

It's also interesting how some of his ex-worshippers can remember him and call him with the same names when they get reborn in this world.
42. "Thereupon the being who re-arose there first thinks to himself: 'I am Brahmā, the Great Brahmā, the Vanquisher, the Unvanquished, the Universal Seer, the Wielder of Power, the Lord, the Maker and Creator, the Supreme Being, the Ordainer, the Almighty, the Father of all that are and are to be. And these beings have been created by me. What is the reason? Because first I made the wish: "Oh, that other beings might come to this place!" And after I made this resolution, now these beings have come.'

"And the beings who re-arose there after him also think: 'This must be Brahmā, the Great Brahmā, the Vanquisher, the Unvanquished, the Universal Seer, the Wielder of Power, the Lord, the Maker and Creator, the Supreme Being, the Ordainer, the Almighty, the Father of all that are and are to be. And we have been created by him. What is the reason? Because we see that he was here first, and we appeared here after him.'

43. "Herein, bhikkhus, the being who re-arose there first possesses longer life, greater beauty, and greater authority than the beings who re-arose there after him.

44. "Now, bhikkhus, this comes to pass, that a certain being, after passing away from that plane, takes rebirth in this world. Having come to this world, he goes forth from home to homelessness. When he has gone forth, by means of ardor, endeavor, application, diligence, and right reflection, he attains to such a degree of mental concentration that with his mind thus concentrated he recollects his immediately preceding life, but none previous to that. He speaks thus: 'We were created by him, by Brahmā, the Great Brahmā, the Vanquisher, the Unvanquished, the Universal Seer, the Wielder of Power, the Lord, the Maker and Creator, the Supreme Being, the Ordainer, the Almighty, the Father of all that are and are to be. He is permanent, stable, eternal, not subject to change, and he will remain the same just like eternity itself. But we, who have been created by him and have come to this world, are impermanent, unstable, short-lived, doomed to perish.'
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cappuccino
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Re: Jesus is the Only Way?

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Dweller wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:23 pm Interesting how Mahabrahma calls himself Father, Almighty, Lord and with other names also common for creator god in Abrahamic religions.
yet we should realize he is powerful, real, and influential


within the larger picture of the universe.
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Re: Jesus is the Only Way?

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cappuccino wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:41 pm
Dweller wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:23 pm Interesting how Mahabrahma calls himself Father, Almighty, Lord and with other names also common for creator god in Abrahamic religions.
yet we should realize he is powerful, real, and influential


within the larger picture of the universe.
But he is deluded and is not the powerful figure, let alone saviour, that he claims to be, any more than Kim Ilsung is a god benefiting Korea.
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Re: Jesus is the Only Way?

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cappuccino wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:41 pm
Dweller wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:23 pm Interesting how Mahabrahma calls himself Father, Almighty, Lord and with other names also common for creator god in Abrahamic religions.
yet we should realize he is powerful, real, and influential


within the larger picture of the universe.
No doubt about that.

Brahma Sahampati and Suddhavasa devas are stronger though.

:anjali:
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Re: Jesus is the Only Way?

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4GreatHeavenlyKings wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:15 pm But he is deluded and is not the powerful figure, let alone saviour, that he claims to be
from the perspective of the Buddha


from our perspective maybe he is a savior
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Re: Jesus is the Only Way?

Post by 4GreatHeavenlyKings »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:47 pm
4GreatHeavenlyKings wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:15 pm But he is deluded and is not the powerful figure, let alone saviour, that he claims to be
from the perspective of the Buddha


from our perspective maybe he is a savior
For this and other reasons, therefore, we should be glad that the Buddha taught us the correct things about gods.
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Re: Jesus is the Only Way?

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4GreatHeavenlyKings wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:24 am
I thank you for this discussion, Tutareture. In shattering your argument that kshanabhangavada must be false because otherwise atoms could exist in two places simultaneously (by showing evidence that atoms and subatomic particles can exist in two places simultaneously), I have learned more about physics.
I just searched physics and wanna focus on commenting on this.

Hmm.... it's more of the concept of superposition. Quantum objects goes into superposition, which can includes superposition of 2 locations. However, when measured, the quantum object is definitely in only one location at that time. It's just that we cannot give a good concept of location when it's in superposition of position. Depending on your chosen quantum interpretations too, see more in reddit, r/quantuminterpretation.

Also, on the later discussion on Von Neumann–Wigner interpretation, I think as Buddhists, we cannot say it's ruled out definitely as well. Recall in DN 1, that MahaBrahma was the first being to be reborn back into the universe after it starts to expand again. Maha Brahma could very well be the consciousness which causes collapse.

Admittedly, it's very close to the God based religion people's preferences, however, it's just the stance of us Buddhist to say that we don't admit that the first being in this universe in this cycle is all powerful, all good nor all knowing. There's no logical requirement for any of these attributes for there to be a superbeing just to collapse the wave function of the universe. @Tutareture
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Re: Jesus is the Only Way?

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To me, Jesus was more like a powerful Rishii and held this wrong view:
“There are, bhikkhus, some recluses and brahmins who are eternalists in regard to some things and non-eternalists in regard to other things, and who on four grounds proclaim the self and the world to be partly eternal and partly non-eternal. And owing to what, with reference to what, do these honorable recluses and brahmins proclaim their views?
39. “There comes a time, bhikkhus, when after the lapse of a long period this world contracts (disintegrates). While the world is contracting, beings for the most part are reborn in the Ābhassara Brahma-world.12 There they dwell, mind-made, feeding on rapture, self-luminous, moving through the air, abiding in glory. And they continue thus for a long, long period of time.
40. “But sooner or later, bhikkhus, after the lapse of a long period, there comes a time when this world begins to expand once again.
While the world is expanding, an empty palace of Brahmā appears.
Then a certain being, due to the exhaustion of his life span or the exhaustion of his merit, passes away from the Ābhassara plane and re-arises in the empty palace of Brahmā. There he dwells, mind-made, feeding on rapture, self-luminous, moving through the air, abiding in glory. And he continues thus for a long, long period of time.
41. “Then, as a result of dwelling there all alone for so long a time, there arises in him dissatisfaction and agitation, (and he yearns):
‘Oh, that other beings might come to this place!’ Just at that moment, due to the exhaustion of their life span or the exhaustion of their merit, certain other beings pass away from the Ābhassara plane and re-arise in the palace of Brahmā, in companionship with him. There they dwell, mind-made, feeding on rapture, self-luminous, moving through the air, abiding in glory. And they continue thus for a long, long period of time.
42. “Thereupon the being who re-arose there first thinks to himself: ‘I am Brahmā, the Great Brahmā, the Vanquisher, the Unvanquished, the Universal Seer, the Wielder of Power, the Lord, the Maker and Creator, the Supreme Being, the Ordainer, the Almighty, the Father of all that are and are to be. And these beings have been created by me. What is the reason? Because first I made the wish: “Oh, that other beings might come to this place!” And after I made this resolution, now these beings have come.’ “And the beings who re-arose there after him also think: ‘This must be Brahmā, the Great Brahmā, the Vanquisher, the Unvanquished, the Universal Seer, the Wielder of Power, the Lord, the Maker and Creator, the Supreme Being, the Ordainer, the Almighty, the Father of all that are and are to be. And we have been created by him. What is the reason? Because we see that he was here first, and we appeared here after him.’
But I like him. He's cool.


Used to watch this while reading Bible. Well, it inspired me in certain way.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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