Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
sphairos
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

Post by sphairos »

SteRo wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:35 pm
sphairos wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:14 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:37 pm

If rebirth dont exist why should i follow morality?
because u gonna hurt people around u ? And hurting people feels bad, like hurting yourself?
Caution. Don't confuse 'not following morality' with intentionally performing immorality. Coursing in signs, morality may appear as if important but not coursing in signs, morality and immorality are irrelevant concepts.

The 'I am' that follows morality is the same 'I am' that appropriates "rebirth". Therefore CL's question is ambiguous: when there is no 'I am' rebirth does not exist but there also isn't 'I am' that may follow morality.
Irrelevant to my comment. The Buddha teaches us to feel love toward all living beings like a mother loves her child. You can be moral and don't believe in rebirth.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

Post by Coëmgenu »

The question ConfusedLayman poised is similar to "If you don't believe in hell and God, what is your morality based upon?" It is conflating rebirth with karma en toto. You can believe in karma without believing in rebirth. It just means you think different things about what is "karmically possible" versus impossible (i.e. "rebirth" here).

You can even be moral without believing in "karma" at all. Gasp!
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

Post by Ceisiwr »

sphairos wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:16 pm
SteRo wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:35 pm
sphairos wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:14 pm

because u gonna hurt people around u ? And hurting people feels bad, like hurting yourself?
Caution. Don't confuse 'not following morality' with intentionally performing immorality. Coursing in signs, morality may appear as if important but not coursing in signs, morality and immorality are irrelevant concepts.

The 'I am' that follows morality is the same 'I am' that appropriates "rebirth". Therefore CL's question is ambiguous: when there is no 'I am' rebirth does not exist but there also isn't 'I am' that may follow morality.
Irrelevant to my comment. The Buddha teaches us to feel love toward all living beings like a mother loves her child. You can be moral and don't believe in rebirth.
Difficult, possibly impossible, if you believe in 1 life.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
SteRo
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

Post by SteRo »

sphairos wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:16 pm
SteRo wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:35 pm
sphairos wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:14 pm

because u gonna hurt people around u ? And hurting people feels bad, like hurting yourself?
Caution. Don't confuse 'not following morality' with intentionally performing immorality. Coursing in signs, morality may appear as if important but not coursing in signs, morality and immorality are irrelevant concepts.

The 'I am' that follows morality is the same 'I am' that appropriates "rebirth". Therefore CL's question is ambiguous: when there is no 'I am' rebirth does not exist but there also isn't 'I am' that may follow morality.
Irrelevant to my comment. The Buddha teaches us to feel love toward all living beings like a mother loves her child. You can be moral and don't believe in rebirth.
Well, if there is a buddha that teaches you something that's great. :sage:
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

Post by SteRo »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:36 pm
SteRo wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:27 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:46 pm

Why should the principle of "survival of the fittest" apply to systems of thought?
Why shouldn't it apply? :sage:
Because, unlike the survival of species according to evolutionary theory, there is no mechanism which might explain why certain systems of thought succeed or fail according to their veracity. Someone making a positive claim about the natural selection of ideas ought to be able to explain why that is the case.
[The Teacher speaking:]
Stero's reply and Sam Vara's reply to SteRo's reply are perfect evidences for the superiority of SteRo's system of thought in terms of optimally aligning itself to reality. It's obvious that Sam Vara has not penetrated reality whereas SteRo has. :buddha1:
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

Post by Sam Vara »

SteRo wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:05 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:36 pm
SteRo wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:27 pm

Why shouldn't it apply? :sage:
Because, unlike the survival of species according to evolutionary theory, there is no mechanism which might explain why certain systems of thought succeed or fail according to their veracity. Someone making a positive claim about the natural selection of ideas ought to be able to explain why that is the case.
[The Teacher speaking:]
Stero's reply and Sam Vara's reply to SteRo's reply are perfect evidences for the superiority of SteRo's system of thought in terms of optimally aligning itself to reality. It's obvious that Sam Vara has not penetrated reality whereas SteRo has. :buddha1:
Are you going to address this potentially interesting point, or are you going to indulge in evasive clowning?
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

Post by SteRo »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:25 pm
SteRo wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:05 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:36 pm

Because, unlike the survival of species according to evolutionary theory, there is no mechanism which might explain why certain systems of thought succeed or fail according to their veracity. Someone making a positive claim about the natural selection of ideas ought to be able to explain why that is the case.
[The Teacher speaking:]
Stero's reply and Sam Vara's reply to SteRo's reply are perfect evidences for the superiority of SteRo's system of thought in terms of optimally aligning itself to reality. It's obvious that Sam Vara has not penetrated reality whereas SteRo has. :buddha1:
Are you going to address this potentially interesting point, or are you going to indulge in evasive clowning?
[The Teacher abides in silence :buddha1: ]
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

Post by Sam Vara »

SteRo wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:35 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:25 pm
SteRo wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:05 pm

[The Teacher speaking:]
Stero's reply and Sam Vara's reply to SteRo's reply are perfect evidences for the superiority of SteRo's system of thought in terms of optimally aligning itself to reality. It's obvious that Sam Vara has not penetrated reality whereas SteRo has. :buddha1:
Are you going to address this potentially interesting point, or are you going to indulge in evasive clowning?
[The Teacher abides in silence :buddha1: ]
Perhaps he should think about becoming a permanent resident there. Or at least buying some sort of timeshare arrangement.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings SteRo,
SteRo wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:10 am I only accept secularism as secularims and having the choice between secularism and buddhism I opt for secularism.
That's fine, but also in light of a few of your recent posts, it feels necessary to remind you also that...
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:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

Post by SteRo »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:38 pm
SteRo wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:35 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:25 pm

Are you going to address this potentially interesting point, or are you going to indulge in evasive clowning?
[The Teacher abides in silence :buddha1: ]
Perhaps he should think about becoming a permanent resident there.
That's impossible due to continuous flow which is no different from universal flux of materiality. :sage:

BTW The talk of "he" is inappropriate ... when illusory mentality subsides back into materiality ... is it called "he" or "it"? :shrug:
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Pronoun policing is a sure sign that something's up.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

Post by Ceisiwr »

SteRo wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:11 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:38 pm
SteRo wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:35 pm

[The Teacher abides in silence :buddha1: ]
Perhaps he should think about becoming a permanent resident there.
That's impossible due to continuous flow which is no different from universal flux of materiality. :sage:

BTW The talk of "he" is inappropriate ... when illusory mentality subsides back into materiality ... is it called "he" or "it"? :shrug:
It starts to talk sense or it gets the hose again.

“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
sphairos
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

Post by sphairos »

SteRo wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:52 pm
sphairos wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:16 pm
SteRo wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:35 pm

Caution. Don't confuse 'not following morality' with intentionally performing immorality. Coursing in signs, morality may appear as if important but not coursing in signs, morality and immorality are irrelevant concepts.

The 'I am' that follows morality is the same 'I am' that appropriates "rebirth". Therefore CL's question is ambiguous: when there is no 'I am' rebirth does not exist but there also isn't 'I am' that may follow morality.
Irrelevant to my comment. The Buddha teaches us to feel love toward all living beings like a mother loves her child. You can be moral and don't believe in rebirth.
Well, if there is a buddha that teaches you something that's great. :sage:
Well, if there is no Buddha for you and you are "teaching" yourself -- good luck :lol:
How good and wonderful are your days,
How true are your ways?
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SamanaJohann2
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

Post by SamanaJohann2 »

SarathW wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:52 am Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

There are many kind of Buddhist schools. Mahayana, Theravada, Ambdekar, Secular etc.
The question is what is the minimum standard to accept as Buddhist teaching?
- Is that the members take three refuges?
- Is it that the school follows Tipitaka?
- Can I pick and chose and make a new Buddhist school
- If I don't know or understand Kamma Vipaka, rebirth Nibbana, etc can I drop them and make a new school?
- Do secular Buddhist follow Tipitaka or some sort of reference point (book)?
- At what point it could be heretical?
:thinking:
Thinking in terms of "we" is already a strong notion of secular view of the path, good householder. So it seems like one asks just from one world (secular) to take part on another or? "Ism" in addition makes it really an ironical seeming question, or doesn't it?

My person guesses, if honest reflecting, good householder could easy find release from his doubts and open question, right?
48vows
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

Post by 48vows »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:24 pm "Cultural Buddhists" are similar to "Eternalists" & "Materialists". They believe the Buddha taught something continues after physical death. They believe "birth" ("jati"), "death" ("marana"), "kaya" ("the body"), etc, are "physical" or "material".

"Secular Buddhists" are similar to "Annihilationists". They believe the Buddha taught about the "eternalistic rebirth reincarnation" the Cultural Buddhists believe in yet they choose to disbelieve it. Therefore, Secular Buddhists are self-declared heretics.
:goodpost:
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