Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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sphairos
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

Post by sphairos »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:32 pm
sphairos wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:11 pm to me "religious Buddhism" is an oxymoron like "atheistic Christianity". Buddhism is not a religion! To get an idea of what Buddhism is, read Plato's "Republic" (carefully, with proper introduction and notes).
Kamma, rebirth, Nibbana, ritual practices. This isn’t secular ;)
Have nothing to do with "religion".

Read the "Republic" ;) Or the book by Pierre Hadot "Qu'est-ce que la philosophie antique?" ("What Is Ancient Philosophy?").
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sphairos
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

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mjaviem wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:43 pm
sphairos wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:11 pm to me "religious Buddhism" is an oxymoron like "atheistic Christianity". Buddhism is not a religion! To get an idea of what Buddhism is, read Plato's "Republic" (carefully, with proper introduction and notes).
It depends on your definition of religion.
Buddhism does not fit any definition of religion.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Well, I think that's wrong. You can have a pet Buddhism that is personally yours that you don't consider a religion, but Buddhists everywhere in real Buddhist societies practicing real world Buddhism practice the religion of Buddhism. I put the two definitions from Merriam-Webster I brought forward before behind this assertion.
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sphairos
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

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Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:57 pm Well, I think that's wrong. You can have a pet Buddhism that is personally yours that you don't consider a religion, but Buddhists everywhere in real Buddhist societies practicing real world Buddhism practice the religion of Buddhism. I put the two definitions from Merriam-Webster I brought forward before behind this assertion.
You can have your pet "religious" Buddhism in your imagination, but it has nothing to do with real Buddhism.

You didn't provide any (real, scientific) definition of religion. What you provided is some nonsense, "religion" is "religious", and "everything is religion". You will be able to come up with a well-informed scholarly definition of religion after having studied these works:

https://books.google.de/books?id=VjUO4b ... navlinks_s

https://www.amazon.com/New-Approaches-S ... B005DQIXYQ

https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/ ... 11719/html

https://books.google.de/books?id=u-UkAA ... BnoECAcQAg

https://books.google.de/books?id=YdMhAA ... navlinks_s

etc., but you will still fail, as the above scholars did, to create a definition of religion which would encompass Christianity, Islam on the one hand and Buddhism on the other.

Buddhism is not a religion by definition.

Otherwise, please, provide the definition. But not nonsense from some English dictionary.

You can say "Buddhism really religion" over and over again, but it won't make it a religion.
Last edited by sphairos on Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

Post by Coëmgenu »

sphairos wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:19 pmYou didn't provide any (real, scientific) definition of religion. What you provided is some nonsense, "religion" is "religious", and "everything is religion". You will be able to come up with a well-informed scholarly definition of religion after having studied these works:

[...]

Otherwise, please, provide the definition. But not nonsense from some English dictionary.
Kindly please desist in moving the goalposts. You said that no one would even be able to find so much as a dictionary defintion of religion that applies to Buddhism. You were wrong.
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sphairos
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

Post by sphairos »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:23 pm
sphairos wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:19 pmYou didn't provide any (real, scientific) definition of religion. What you provided is some nonsense, "religion" is "religious", and "everything is religion". You will be able to come up with a well-informed scholarly definition of religion after having studied these works:

[...]

Otherwise, please, provide the definition. But not nonsense from some English dictionary.
Kindly please desist in moving the goalposts. You said that no one would even be able to find so much as a dictionary defintion of religion that applies to Buddhism. You were wrong.
No, you failed miserably, as I predicted. I have BA and MA in Religious studies and know what I am talking about, unlike you.
Last edited by sphairos on Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

Post by Coëmgenu »

I disagree. Here is the thread where you requested dictionary entries before you turn around here and said people can do better than giving you dictionary entries:

viewtopic.php?p=612179#p612179

You should keep your story straight. You asked for dictionary entries, and then complained when I gave you that.
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sphairos
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

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Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:26 pm I disagree. Here is the thread where you requested dictionary entries before you turn around here and said people can do better than giving you dictionary entries:

viewtopic.php?p=612179#p612179

You should keep your story straight. You asked for dictionary entries, and then complained when I gave you that.
Like I said and predicted, you failed miserably. I explained why in that thread.

Unless you provide a requested real, coherent, well-informed, non-contradictory, scientific definition of religion, I am not going to reply anymore. But you won't and can't, so I am not going to reply.
Last edited by sphairos on Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

Post by Coëmgenu »

I don't think it's a very valid response. Are you going to address the fact that you asked for dictionary entries and then turned around and said that your interlocutors can do better than give you dictionary definitions? You wanted the dictionary until it disagreed with you, then it was suddenly nonsense.
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It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
sphairos
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

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Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:29 pm I don't think it's a very valid response. Are you going to address the fact that you asked for dictionary entries and then turned around and said that your interlocutors can do better than give you dictionary definitions? You wanted the dictionary until it disagreed with you, then it was suddenly nonsense.
See my explanation in that thread and the previous post.

Hint: start with a scholarly definition of Christianity and see how it conforms to the scholarly definition of religion. Then try to apply it to Buddhism.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

Post by Coëmgenu »

I think sense 4

4. a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

is how most people in my life use the word religion, and most of these are native speakers of English. I don't particularly think this is nonsense and, if you insist on that categorizing this rather mundane dictionary entry as "nonsense," I think then that it is you that should back up that it is nonsense. If you want to personally stick to word senses popular in the Academy, that is fine. I don't think the Academy dictates the language of the people like Académie française, but rather the exact opposite. I know several in "the Academy" who would call claiming Buddhism to not be a religion "cultural imperialism," but I am not one of those.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

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sphairos wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:24 pm ... I have BA and MA in Religious studies and know what I am talking about...
Why buddhism is not religion? Is it because of no god, no prayers, no priests? Is it something about rituals? Can't it be a religion just because it explains human existence?
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

Post by Coëmgenu »

It isn't a religion because it is "true" and "experiential," as much as I understand the views put forward by Sphairos. They are the exact same talking points evangelical Christians and Muslims use to argue that Islam and Christianity "aren't religions." Hinduism isn't a religion if you ask a Hindu who entertains sufficient notions of Hindu exceptionalism. Am I way off? We'll have to see what arguments Sphairos has put forward and will put forward on these two threads.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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mjaviem
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

Post by mjaviem »

Ok. I quoted this BB's explanation but there was no reply to it.
mjaviem wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:58 am
sphairos wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:11 pm Buddhism is not a religion. If anyone disagrees, try to give me a definition of religion that would apply both for Buddhism and Christianity etc.
...
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Bundokji
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

Post by Bundokji »

Buddhism can be considered a religion. Fist, it teaches truths, and the truth business has to do with religion. The via negativa approach is similar to other religions, which present their belief systems in contrast to other belief systems. For example, monotheistic religions preach the one god, and in their soteriology, they are meant to liberate humans from superstitious beliefs. In Buddhism, the superstitious belief being presented as identification with the mind and body. Also Buddhism has its own institutions, similar to other religions, be it temples or monasticism. Whenever there are institutions, there has to be authority figure (the Buddha).
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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