Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
48vows
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

Post by 48vows »

plabit wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:00 am Buddha was not looking for crazy or mentally ill people to teach but by his own statements for the wise. As when he was relunctant to teach and had to be convinced that someone who could understand him even existed!

But modern psychologists have commercialized the dhamma by claiming their therapies are the dhamma. Like mindfulness which in one form at least is the opposite of the dhamma, i.e. when they say to sit in "non-judgemental awareness" allowing every intrusive thought trounce around in your head and not judging it. Whereas Buddha in the Eightfold Noble Path under Right Energy says here one arouses energy arouses effort to abandon bad thoughts that have already arisen and to prevent the arising of unarisen bad thoughts (i.e. the opposite of non-judgemetal awareness related to thoughts). So the psychologists are misrepresenting Buddha
:goodpost: :goodpost: :goodpost:
plabit
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

Post by plabit »

Kim OHara wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:04 am
plabit wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:00 am
Kim OHara wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:28 am I think that part of our problem here is that Buddhism crosses boundaries which we take for granted in the West, i.e., it overlaps not only religion but also science (psychology in particular, but also cosmology) and philosophy (how we know, and the limits of what we can know); medicine too, if we want to separate psychotherapy from psychology.
Does it though? Is this not rather a modern abuse?
No. It is the difference between how we categorise knowledge in the modern West and how people categorised knowledge in ancient India.
We can't accept the silly concept of 4 truth values, or more realistically what they do in Indian "logic", 4 false values and no truth, or fourfold negation of everything. Its too absurd. And when that is your logic, its no wonder if you never develop indoor plumbing but poop in the streets.

Meanwhile, with binary logic, true and false, we've created computers that run the internet. And those Indians who aren't silly heads have joined us in using that logic. Imagine building a computer that runs of fourfold negation! It'd never even boot, or would boot directly to the blue-screen-of-death, but it'd be four different shades of blue.
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

plabit wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:50 pm ...
...
We can't accept the silly concept of 4 truth values, or more realistically what they do in Indian "logic", 4 false values and no truth, or fourfold negation of everything. Its too absurd. And when that is your logic, its no wonder if you never develop indoor plumbing but poop in the streets.

Meanwhile, with binary logic, true and false, we've created computers that run the internet. And those Indians who aren't silly heads have joined us in using that logic. Imagine building a computer that runs of fourfold negation! It'd never even boot, or would boot directly to the blue-screen-of-death, but it'd be four different shades of blue.

:lol:

Interesting and amusing writing.

I don't know much about machine languages, nor boolean logic, let alone Tetralemma.

However, it seems some of those who do know about them have tried resorting to Eastern logic of Catuskoti for some issues in computer science, quite probably much more profound than handling Windows 95's BSOD:
  • A Discovery of the Relevance of Eastern Four-valued (Catuskoti) Logic to Define Modular Transformations When There are Multiple Ways of Representing the Same Modular Transformation

    November 2015Computer Science and Information Technology 3(6):247-255
    DOI:10.13189/csit.2015.030603
    Project: Transformation of Software Development Designs Between Different System Development Methodologies
    • Abstract

      There were two methods of doing modular transformations from Entity Relationship Diagrams to Class Diagrams according to international researchers. In order to establish which method would best suit software engineers, we conducted a survey by giving a group of students in the computer science field, whom we considered potential future software engineers. The results we got were valid, but did not match those of any of the international researchers. We found that this situation could only be explained using Eastern Four-Valued logic, also known by such names as Catuskoti and Tetralemma.
:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
plabit
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

Post by plabit »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:24 pm
plabit wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:50 pm ...
...
We can't accept the silly concept of 4 truth values, or more realistically what they do in Indian "logic", 4 false values and no truth, or fourfold negation of everything. Its too absurd. And when that is your logic, its no wonder if you never develop indoor plumbing but poop in the streets.

Meanwhile, with binary logic, true and false, we've created computers that run the internet. And those Indians who aren't silly heads have joined us in using that logic. Imagine building a computer that runs of fourfold negation! It'd never even boot, or would boot directly to the blue-screen-of-death, but it'd be four different shades of blue.

:lol:

Interesting and amusing writing.

I don't know much about machine languages, nor boolean logic, let alone Tetralemma.

However, it seems some of those who do know about them have tried resorting to Eastern logic of Catuskoti for some issues in computer science:
  • A Discovery of the Relevance of Eastern Four-valued (Catuskoti) Logic to Define Modular Transformations When There are Multiple Ways of Representing the Same Modular Transformation

    November 2015Computer Science and Information Technology 3(6):247-255
    DOI:10.13189/csit.2015.030603
    Project: Transformation of Software Development Designs Between Different System Development Methodologies
    • Abstract

      There were two methods of doing modular transformations from Entity Relationship Diagrams to Class Diagrams according to international researchers. In order to establish which method would best suit software engineers, we conducted a survey by giving a group of students in the computer science field, whom we considered potential future software engineers. The results we got were valid, but did not match those of any of the international researchers. We found that this situation could only be explained using Eastern Four-Valued logic, also known by such names as Catuskoti and Tetralemma.
:heart:
There is the notion of Fuzzy Logic which I studied in college when getting my degree in Computer Science, but you can't use it by itself. You need boolean logic to implement Fuzzy Logic. Boolean logic is real truth and always is needed. But for machine learning, you can write a program using boolean logic that implements Fuzzy Logic to simulate the process of learning, to say for example finetune the value of a constant variable in an equation where you don't know yet what the value should be but you can feed the program a set of data and have it appromximate the right value for you.

Why is boolean logic still needed? Because the truth-value in Fuzzy Logic is basically the percentage to which a value belongs to a Fuzzy Set. If it doesn't at all, the value is 0. If it completely does, the value is 1. If it partially does, the value is between 0 and 1. Or in other words, 0% to 100%.

But to know if it belongs to the set or not and to what extent, you use shapes or mathmatical functions that define shapes. Say you uses curves. The topmost point of the curve representing 1 (100%) and the lower representing the lowest non-zero value, and below that or above that (off the curve) representing 0.

Well, boolean logic is being used to determine if the value is on the curve or not. So you can't get away from boolean. If you said "the value is neither on the curve nor off the curve, nor both on the curve nor not off the curve, etc." as in the fourfold negation, none of this would work. You have to use REAL logic which is boolean, even to simulate logic via fuzzy logic.
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mjaviem
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

Post by mjaviem »

Eko Care wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:23 pm ... Puggalavada views.
Good link. Now I'm confused and don't know what's the difference between Theravada, Pudgalavada and Secular buddhism.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

plabit wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:49 pm ...
Fuzzy Logic ...
...

Thanks for the description.

:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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Eko Care
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

Post by Eko Care »

mjaviem wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:14 pm
Eko Care wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:23 pm ... Puggalavada views.
Good link. Now I'm confused and don't know what's the difference between Theravada, Pudgalavada and Secular buddhism.
May be Orthodox, Heterodox and Paradox respectively.
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

Post by DNS »

Eko Care wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:24 pm
mjaviem wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:14 pm
Eko Care wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:23 pm ... Puggalavada views.
Good link. Now I'm confused and don't know what's the difference between Theravada, Pudgalavada and Secular buddhism.
May be Orthodox, Heterodox and Paradox respectively.
Or alternatively,

Theravada = no self or not self
Pudgalavada = impermanent self
Secular buddhism = who cares, there's no rebirth anyway.

:tongue:
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Eko Care
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

Post by Eko Care »

DNS wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:57 pm
Eko Care wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:24 pm
mjaviem wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:14 pm
Good link. Now I'm confused and don't know what's the difference between Theravada, Pudgalavada and Secular buddhism.
May be Orthodox, Heterodox and Paradox respectively.
Or alternatively,

Theravada = no self or not self
Pudgalavada = impermanent self
Secular buddhism = who cares, there's no rebirth anyway.
:thumbsup:
____________________________________________________
I'm now curious about finding out any Secular person inside Secular Buddhism itself!
Secular of Secular !
How will such a person look like?
Might he oppose secular views?
Might he accept Rebirth?
:rolleye:
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Eko Care
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Secular of Secular

Post by Eko Care »

Practitioners of Secular Budhissm in a secular way.
Which category do they belong to?
Last edited by Eko Care on Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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cappuccino
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

Post by cappuccino »

DNS wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:57 pm Secular buddhism = who cares, there's no rebirth anyway.
also known as lying to oneself
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mikenz66
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

Post by mikenz66 »

DNS wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:57 pm Secular buddhism = who cares, there's no rebirth anyway.
In my experience, it's common for secular Buddhists to put a lot of effort into discussing not self. Sometimes it goes in a somewhat nihilistic, feel-good direction (which is not restricted to SBs - you see this "emptiness sickness" in other places...) along the lines of: "Since there is no self you don't have to worry about all that stuff that's going on in your life - it doesn't belong to you anyway - just relax..." At other times it goes in the direction of the Ayya Khema quote in the link above: "There is universal consciousness that can be experienced..." The latter idea ties in nicely with ideas of conservation and communing with nature. Of course, there will be a quick comment that "we're not talking about a self here..."

One of the things I sometimes find puzzling about some SBs is that they will vehemently reject suttas that speak in terms of rebirth as obviously some old, unscientific superstition, but be quite comfortable with the "communing with nature/universal consciousness" idea, and in that case will say that one shouldn't be bound by scientific materialism...

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Eko Care
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

Post by Eko Care »

12 Reasons why I am not a secular Buddhist

Like other religions, Buddhism has numerous sects, big and small. The sect of Secular Buddhism, mostly found in the West, places much emphasis on Dharma practice revolving around the Four Noble Truths, the Eightfold Path, ethics, mindfulness, meditation, loving kindness and insight.

Secular Buddhists approach the teachings rather exclusively from a daily practice point of view. Some of us would consider this a narrow perspective.

I do not get the sense that the majority of secular Buddhists are anti-religious, though some influential voices in secular Buddhism express regularly existential doubts about the Buddhist tradition.

Most secular Buddhists that I know respect the Buddha’s discourses. Many secular Buddhists do not appear dogmatic about the Pali Suttas. Secular Buddhists often give much emphasis to Western research in neuroscience, psychology and standard mindfulness practices.

There are secular Buddhists who know little or nothing about the Buddha-Dharma, the Buddhist tradition and the relationship of deeply religious Buddhists to the Buddha-Dharma-Sangha. Secular Buddhists have a useful contribution to make as the Triple Gem takes root in the West.

12 Reasons why I am not a secular Buddhist

I spent six years as a monk in religious Buddhism in Thailand and India. Religious Buddhists fully supported 24/7 my practice in the monasteries, on pilgrimages and in the cave.

This year marked 45 years of annual teachings in the Thai Monasteries in Bodh Gaya, the place of the Buddha’s enlightenment including the past 20 years of teaching in Sarnath, where the Buddha gave his first talk. The Thai monasteries have never made a charge for our retreats.. We simply gave a donation. The monastery used the money and much more in recent years to improve the meditation facilities.

Chanting has enabled unhappy, depressed and suicidal people to get through their despair.

Religious Buddhism offers ordination, monasteries, forests and caves, with lay support for practitioners.

Monasteries welcome people to come any day and take refuge in the monastery.

The Buddhist tradition has kept faith in Dharma-Dana (donations to support the Sangha) for more than 2600 years rather than asking for payment for services. The Sangha is the world’s oldest ongoing organisation. Religious faith has sustained this ongoing support for the Sangha.

The Buddhist tradition recognises the importance of devotion to the Three Jewels of the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha. The tradition appreciates the beauty and power of devotion.

The Buddhist tradition preserves and translates ancient and modern Buddhist texts. Translators, the ordained and householders, engage in huge works of scholarship without expecting an hourly rate for their years of precious service.

The Buddhist traditions encourage pilgrimages (yatras), as a spiritual practice, to experience intimacy with the elements and reach sacred destinations or the ‘holy’ places. These holy places include Lumbini, Nepal (birthplace of the Buddha) Bodh Gaya (place of Tree of enlightenment), Sarnath (first discourse) and Kushinagar, India, where the Buddha died. Pilgrims also travel to Mount Kailash, a place of breath-taking beauty in western Tibet. There are numerous places of pilgrimage worldwide,

The Buddhist tradition keeps alive the depths of a variety of experiences, the preservation of the Buddha-Dharma, reflections on karma, the support for dramatic shifts of consciousness, religious rituals, the mystical, a sincere belief in a seemingly endless rebecoming of name and form and more.

The majority of fine Dharma teachers were trained in monasteries. Monasteries provide extended periods of time for spiritual practices ranging from months to years. Practitioners do not have to worry about costs.

The religious tradition can serve like the pod that protects the peas. The best of the religious tradition keeps alive the priority of awakening, liberation and knowing Nirvana. https://www.cHrIsToPHErtItmUSsbLog.org/ ... r-buddhist
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mikenz66
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

Post by mikenz66 »

Useful comments from Christopher Titmus.

It's a pity that
I do not get the sense that the majority of secular Buddhists are anti-religious, though some influential voices in secular Buddhism express regularly existential doubts about the Buddhist tradition.
Mike
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Re: Can we accept secular Buddhism as Buddhism?

Post by Pondera »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:04 pm
DNS wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:57 pm Secular buddhism = who cares, there's no rebirth anyway.
also known as lying to oneself
Dr. Steve Brule on life after death.
Image
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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