Zen Priests who promoted breaking precepts on killing

[tamdrin]

Proponents of these strange viewpoints do not really represent what the majority of Chinese Chan or Japanese Zen Buddhists believe.

[GnosticMind]

I live in Asia -- I have been here for nearly 30 years -- Most East Asians have no interest whatsoever in Zen - it is extremely rare to meet a Japanese or Chinese person who has even the vaguest interest in Zen -- the temples are -- mostly -- for tourists. There is some ( limited) interest in Korea and a degree of activity -- but very , very little interest from wider society. The Zen monks in South Korea frequently get busted for alcohol, gambling, drive smart cars, and they are known to join in street fights and brawls at demos. I wouldn't tar them all with that brush -- but it's pretty common. There is a small degree of serious focus on real Buddhism in South Korea-- very small though, beyond token rituals. General society utterly ignores them.

The Bhikkunis in Korea behave far far better.

The case may differ amongst East Asian Zen communities in the Americas, I don't know, but going by the reputation of the now deceased 'Zen master' Seung Sahn it doesn't look promising ( cult behaviour, manipulation, lying to students, focusing on donations to the temple, breaking precepts etc ) and I wouldn't bank on it -- maybe naïve Westerners overlook those things, but Asians themselves do not. It does not differ in Europe where interest in Mahayana Zen-Chan is almost non-existent amongst Chinese and Japanese.

In South East Asia, Zen-Chan is mostly Dao-ist ritualistic -- check Dhammavudhos' lectures ( on youtube) -- he was a Chinese Mahayana monk who converted to Theravada as many serious East Asian meditators do in those areas, since Zen-Chan is mostly just a cultural phenomena now for marking life's stages with fixed ritual.

[GnosticMind]

''Proponents of these strange viewpoints do not really represent what the majority of Chinese Chan or Japanese Zen Buddhists believe.''

The thinkers in the article and their views expressed, represented by far the majority view of Zen-Chan in Asia, at least into the first half of the 20th century, and the authors were the very monks-priests who introduced Buddhism to the West. They were -- and are -- THAT important, at a high level of the intellect, right down to street level and popular culture ( all of which have an immeasurable effect since they saturate a culture at different points of contact ) Suzuki especially - Jack Kerouac, John Cage, Allen Ginsberg, Ajahn Sumedho, Alan Watts, Aldous Huxley, The Beatles, and countless high ranking intellectuals and scientists in the Americas and Europe -- Suzuki was THE thinker that illuminated them and taught them.

Their influence is-was vast, and can't be overstated.

[SteRo]

In terms of systems of thought those aligned to reality will prevail. Time will tell. In terms of killing there will be no end of killing because killing is an aspect of evolution.

[tamdrin]

''Proponents of these strange viewpoints do not really represent what the majority of Chinese Chan or Japanese Zen Buddhists believe.''

The thinkers in the article and their views expressed, represented by far the majority view of Zen-Chan in Asia, at least into the first half of the 20th century, and the authors were the very monks-priests who introduced Buddhism to the West. They were -- and are -- THAT important, at a high level of the intellect, right down to street level and popular culture ( all of which have an immeasurable effect since they saturate a culture at different points of contact ) Suzuki especially - Jack Kerouac, John Cage, Allen Ginsberg, Ajahn Sumedho, Alan Watts, Aldous Huxley, The Beatles, and countless high ranking intellectuals and scientists in the Americas and Europe -- Suzuki was THE thinker that illuminated them and taught them.

Their influence is-was vast, and can't be overstated.

I'm talking the real monks, practitioners like Master Hsu Yun. Check his biography.

[GnosticMind]

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[plabit]

“On the True Meaning of the Zen Precepts,” Ven Sawaki wrote:

“The Lotus Sutra states that "the Three Worlds [of desire, form, and formlessness] are my existence and all sentient beings therein are my children." From this point of view, everything, friend and foe included, are my children. Superior officers are my existence as are my subordinates. The same can be said of both Japan and the world. Given this, it is just to punish those who disturb the public order. Whether one kills, or does not kill, the precept forbidding killing [is preserved]. It is the precept forbidding killing that wields the sword. It is this precept that throws the bomb. It is for this reason that you must seek to study and practice this precept.”

source -- https://apjjf.org/2014/11/24/Brian-Vict ... ticle.html

and -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C5%8Dd%C5%8D_Sawaki

It sounds like an attempt at a just war theory, and I would interpret "It is the precept forbidding killing that wields the sword" as meaning simply "society must execute criminals and the very precept against killing mandates the killing of murderers." In that sense, the precept against killing is what is doing the killing when the executioner execute the murderer and the executioner is not himself considered a murderer.

[Coëmgenu]

The precept weilds the blade, throws the bomb, etc.

I suppose the precept irradiated Nagasaki.

Here's another odd Zen thing to say:

To obey the precepts is to be but an animal.
To break them is to be a human.

It is like a weird version of "To err is human." It has its point, I'm sure, but it is also another complete inversion of the state of affairs just as with the earlier quote to do with the precept of not killing. It equates observing dharmavinaya with the way an animal thoughtlessly obeys instinct. It equates transcending śīla to transcending the instinct of the animal mind. In reality, it is śīla and dharmavinaya that tames animals with animal instincts and makes them men, not the breaking of precepts.

[Dan74]

"Iconoclastic Zen masters" is something some people get off on and others like to rage on about.

In my experience meeting and studying under Zen teachers, the reality is nothing like this at all. Some, especially from the monastic traditions of China and Korea, are very strict about their precepts. Some in Japan as well, like Soko Morinaga, for instance. Others hold the Bodhisattva precepts very dear and though they may not necessarily stick to every letter of the Vinaya (which the Japanese masters aren't obligated to), they are deeply and sincerely dedicated to serving others. And the majority are like teachers from any tradition - mixed bags.