Gurus in Vajrayana

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Inedible
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Re: Gurus in Vajrayana

Post by Inedible »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:49 am What is empowerment if you do not mind me asking? Is it a recitation of sacred or secret mantras that is believed to have magical powers?
An empowerment is a ritual involving tools and mantras. They come at different levels and can be based on a specific Buddha or Bodhisattva or text. Unless you get an empowerment at Highest Yoga Tantra level you can't really do anything such as starting the Vajrayana preliminaries called Ngöndro. That is a set of 4 or 5 exercises to be done 100,000 or 111,111 times each. Then you have Generation and Completion stage practices, which can be started alongside the preliminaries.
Inedible
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Re: Gurus in Vajrayana

Post by Inedible »

plabit wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:30 am Didn't they used to call it "initiation"? "Empowerment" seems to indicate a shift into femenism or something. Was that word used by the Tibetans prior to the 2nd or 3rd wave of femenism?
It is empowerment because it is a transfer of power and authority.
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Aloka
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Re: Gurus in Vajrayana

Post by Aloka »

Here's some information about "empowerment" from a Tibetan Buddhist website:

https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Empowerment

The Tibetan man wearing glasses in the photo is now dead. He had been previously accused of " multiple acts of sexual, physical and emotional abuse" by some of his students and was also said to have punched a nun in front of witnesses.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/01/obit ... -dies.html

https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/sogyal ... 0punch%22.


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4GreatHeavenlyKings
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Re: Gurus in Vajrayana

Post by 4GreatHeavenlyKings »

Aloka wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:14 am The Tibetan man wearing glasses in the photo is now dead. He had been previously accused of " multiple acts of sexual, physical and emotional abuse" by some of his students and was also said to have punched a nun in front of witnesses.
Moreover, a law firm hired by his own sect concluded that the allegations against him were more likely than not true: https://beyondthetemple.com/tag/lewis-silkin-report/.
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Re: Gurus in Vajrayana

Post by Coëmgenu »

With regards to the specific word "empowerment," I think it's more a mark of the 1960s when Tibetan Buddhism was first getting big in the West rather than any wave of feminism influencing translators. People loved "empowerment" in the 60's, feminist or not. The word in Tibetan is "wang," which corresponds to the Sanskrit "abhiṣeka." In East Asian Esoteric Buddhism, the equivalent ceremonies are referring to as "ordinations" and mark your entrance into and participation in a priesthood. AFAIK, Tibetan Tantra does not call its practitioners priests and is not conceived of as an ordination to a priesthood despite it being an "abhiṣeka." Also, people don't even know whether East Asian Esoteric Buddhism should be called "Tantra" or not because it is missing so many features of later Tibetan Tantra, including a lack of sexual tantras and a general lack of guruyoga. In these, guruyoga is replaced by what I personally call "priesthood yoga," but AFAIK no one else calls it this and it is my own pet name for it. Also, another feature differentiating "East Asian Esotericism" from "Tantra" is the unique place of the Buddha's sutras. In East Asia, the sutras and tantras (and they have different "tantras" outside of Tibet) are seen as conforming and teaching a mutual path. In most "classical" Tantra, the sutras are provisional teachings for those who are not suited for the highest Tantric vehicle. This comes down to the name they use for "Tantra," namely "Uncommon Mahayana."

Everything that supersessionist Mahayanikas say about Theravada, Vajrayanikas say about Mahayana. The Mahayanikas get it just as hard as they give it. Mahayana is the "shared teachings" for the "general population" of spiritual non-specialists. It is the grueling long path for those of dull faculties, the Shravaka path being conceived of as for those with even duller faculties. Vajrayana sees itself as "Special Mahayana," as opposed to "Common Mahayana" practiced by the plebeian masses. So-called "Common Mahayana" is characterized by its co-mingling of the provisional and ultimate. In contrast, the Tantras are framed as from exclusively the ultimate truth, with no provisional watering-down for the sake of the sensibilities of practitioners.

Now this brings us to secrecy. In his commentary to Bodhisattvacaryāvatāra, if I'm not mistaken, it is Venerable Kunzang Pelden who states that "The possessions of the triple gem are dangerous." Why are they dangerous? To damage, destroy, or to steal the possessions of the triple gem is a far greater crime than destroying, damaging, or stealing any other kind of possession. This is not to say that most stealing is fine and only really stealing from the samgha is bad. That is not the lesson to get from this idea, regardless of if we agree with it. Malignancy towards the triple gem has greater consequences than most general malignancy. The Tantras, being framed as the highest summits of the Saddharma, are similarly dangerous and moreso.

According to the Tantric self-narrative, when the Buddha taught the Tantras, he opened up a great pit of hell. This is not something Tantrikas say about their own religion. This is how I am categorizing it. The Tantras, and unlike "opened up a great pit hell" this is not just my characterization, have the power to send you directly to the Avici Hell if they are not practiced properly and if the wrong person practices them. They are seen as "dangerous" in a way similar to how the possessions of the triple gem are "dangerous." If you mess up in Tantra, you go to "special Tantrika hell," which is just a place in the standard Avici Hell, but still nonetheless that is the reason, or at least one, for the secrecy. The other, supposedly, is conserving the teachings and conserving the lines of transmissions for these Tantras, which are seen as too subtle for words beyond a certain point. Not all Tantra can be written down, according to the Tantric self-narrative. Tantras, therefore, are not properly "scriptures," but rather continua of transmission from teacher-to-student that use books incidentally.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Aloka
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Re: Gurus in Vajrayana

Post by Aloka »

4GreatHeavenlyKings wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:43 am
Moreover, a law firm hired by his own sect concluded that the allegations against him were more likely than not true: https://beyondthetemple.com/tag/lewis-silkin-report/.
Maybe so, groups do things like that to protect their lama's reputation - but somebody I used to know on the internet who was a Rigpa student said they were true, plus he already had a reputation years ago.

I used to be involved with TB myself and the stories about him used to filter through to other groups.

Here's a video of him (the fat man) dancing with women to pop music in a Buddhist temple



:shrug:
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Re: Gurus in Vajrayana

Post by cappuccino »

"dancing is madness …"

Ruṇṇa Sutta
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Gurus in Vajrayana

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Hi, I'm new to Dhammawheel. (I usually hang out on the sistersite, Dharmawheel.)

I just want to say that maybe you should ask this sort of question to people in the Vajrayana tradition. You'll get answers that are less biased against vajrayana, and ones that will show the merits of having a guru.

I also want to say that yes, there are a number of bad gurus out there. Sogyal Rinpoche was notorious... There is an emphasis in vajrayana on observing the guru according to certain qualifications and criteria elaborated in the vajrayana scriptures before one decides to follow any one master. They say to follow a teacher without going through this process of observation and evaluation is like drinking poison, both for the student and the lama.
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Dhammanando
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Re: Gurus in Vajrayana

Post by Dhammanando »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:03 am They say to follow a teacher without going through this process of observation and evaluation is like drinking poison, both for the student and the lama.
Well, they certainly say this, but is there any compelling evidence that they actually mean it? Have you personally known any Vajrayanists who did what they're supposed to do in this regard? Any would-be disciples who spent years evaluating a lama or lamas who spent years evaluating a would-be disciple, before either of them accepted each other? Does this ever actually happen?

Or is it (as I suspect) that all this talk about mutual evaluation is little more than a mealy-mouthed platitude that gets trotted out for the sake of damage control every time there's yet another lama-related sex abuse scandal? -

"Oh, it's a terrible tragedy how Rinpoche treated her. But you know it does sort of serve herself right, doesn't it? I mean if only she'd done what the books say and spent *at least* ten years checking the teacher out, then she wouldn't be in this mess, would she?"
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In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
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mabw
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Re: Gurus in Vajrayana

Post by mabw »

Some thoughts and reflections
On secrecy:
Used to be quite bothered by this, but now tend to think this is not so absent from other traditions:
-there is express prohibition for laypeople to read the Vinaya in Chinese Buddhism. There is none as far as I know in Theravada, but I have been told by another that the Vinaya was somewhat restricted to monastics in the old days. Can someone confirm this?
-as far as I know, laypeople are not allowed to be present during the bimonthly confessional by monastics. Am I correct?
-I have read some Dhammapada stories in the past. As far as I can remember, 5 topics for meditation are given when one becomes a samanera. The impression I got was that meditation was quite exclusive to monastics in the old days. This is supported by the relatively few suttas that are actually addressed to laypeople. The practice given to laypeople consisted mainly of dana and buddhanusati AFAIK.
- I have attended talks, where the monastic would see his students and discuss meditative experiences. To a non-meditator like me, sometimes, the things they discuss sounds really weird. I can imagine this will totally freak out a total beginner to Buddhism.

On requirement of a teacher:

-Dhammapada Verse 392:
"If from somebody one should learn the Teaching of the Buddha, he should respectfully pay homage to that teacher, as a brahmin worships the sacrificial fire."
https://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/v ... ?verse=392

Admonition for requirement of a teacher is similar in Theravada as far as I am concerned, probably not to the extent of Tantra, but the standard answer about meditation practice is to first find a teacher.

-in the Canki Sutta, we read:

"When, on observing that the monk is purified with regard to qualities based on delusion, he places conviction in him. With the arising of conviction, he visits him & grows close to him. Growing close to him, he lends ear. Lending ear, he hears the Dhamma. Hearing the Dhamma, he remembers it. Remembering it, he penetrates the meaning of those dhammas. Penetrating the meaning, he comes to an agreement through pondering those dhammas. There being an agreement through pondering those dhammas, desire arises. With the arising of desire, he becomes willing. Willing, he contemplates (lit: "weighs," "compares"). Contemplating, he makes an exertion. Exerting himself, he both realizes the ultimate meaning of the truth with his body and sees by penetrating it with discernment."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

On seeing the teacher as the Buddha:
- I sometimes wonder, the point of looking for a teacher is supposed to be because he/she has "got it". If a teacher has yet to achieve the sublime states, how is he to teach the student? In Vajrayana at least, the seeing of the guru as the Buddha inspires faith which quiets the mind.

I hope I have not misrepresented anything here. I hope whoever is more knowledgeable than me would be kind enough to correct any mistaken notions I might have and to answer some questions I posed above.

Thank you in advance.
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Re: Gurus in Vajrayana

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Dhammanando wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:20 am
SilenceMonkey wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:03 am They say to follow a teacher without going through this process of observation and evaluation is like drinking poison, both for the student and the lama.
Well, they certainly say this, but is there any compelling evidence that they actually mean it? Have you personally known any Vajrayanists who did what they're supposed to do in this regard? Any would-be disciples who spent years evaluating a lama or lamas who spent years evaluating a would-be disciple, before either of them accepted each other? Does this ever actually happen?
Of course. Very many, actually. If you're in a good Tibetan sangha, that's one of the first things they tell you. It's the basics. It doesn't always happen like this, but that's how it should go.

It seems like it didn't happen much in the Sogyal group, and if people went through this process there wouldn't have been so many issues.

I mean, there are unsavory groups no matter what tradition you're in, let's face it. Zen, Pureland and Theravada included. A few bad teachers doesn't mean the entire tradition is a bust. That's not how it works.
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Re: Gurus in Vajrayana

Post by SilenceMonkey »

mabw wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:31 pm Some thoughts and reflections
On secrecy:
Used to be quite bothered by this, but now tend to think this is not so absent from other traditions:
-there is express prohibition for laypeople to read the Vinaya in Chinese Buddhism. There is none as far as I know in Theravada, but I have been told by another that the Vinaya was somewhat restricted to monastics in the old days. Can someone confirm this?
-as far as I know, laypeople are not allowed to be present during the bimonthly confessional by monastics. Am I correct?
-I have read some Dhammapada stories in the past. As far as I can remember, 5 topics for meditation are given when one becomes a samanera. The impression I got was that meditation was quite exclusive to monastics in the old days. This is supported by the relatively few suttas that are actually addressed to laypeople. The practice given to laypeople consisted mainly of dana and buddhanusati AFAIK.
- I have attended talks, where the monastic would see his students and discuss meditative experiences. To a non-meditator like me, sometimes, the things they discuss sounds really weird. I can imagine this will totally freak out a total beginner to Buddhism.

On requirement of a teacher:

-Dhammapada Verse 392:
"If from somebody one should learn the Teaching of the Buddha, he should respectfully pay homage to that teacher, as a brahmin worships the sacrificial fire."
https://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/v ... ?verse=392

Admonition for requirement of a teacher is similar in Theravada as far as I am concerned, probably not to the extent of Tantra, but the standard answer about meditation practice is to first find a teacher.

-in the Canki Sutta, we read:

"When, on observing that the monk is purified with regard to qualities based on delusion, he places conviction in him. With the arising of conviction, he visits him & grows close to him. Growing close to him, he lends ear. Lending ear, he hears the Dhamma. Hearing the Dhamma, he remembers it. Remembering it, he penetrates the meaning of those dhammas. Penetrating the meaning, he comes to an agreement through pondering those dhammas. There being an agreement through pondering those dhammas, desire arises. With the arising of desire, he becomes willing. Willing, he contemplates (lit: "weighs," "compares"). Contemplating, he makes an exertion. Exerting himself, he both realizes the ultimate meaning of the truth with his body and sees by penetrating it with discernment."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

On seeing the teacher as the Buddha:
- I sometimes wonder, the point of looking for a teacher is supposed to be because he/she has "got it". If a teacher has yet to achieve the sublime states, how is he to teach the student? In Vajrayana at least, the seeing of the guru as the Buddha inspires faith which quiets the mind.

I hope I have not misrepresented anything here. I hope whoever is more knowledgeable than me would be kind enough to correct any mistaken notions I might have and to answer some questions I posed above.

Thank you in advance.
Thank you for you insightful post, Mabw. :anjali: It sheds a nice light on the meaning of having a teacher in the Theravada tradition.

Here I can offer only very little because I myself have not entered into the Vajrayana, but am still exploring from the outside.
- I sometimes wonder, the point of looking for a teacher is supposed to be because he/she has "got it". If a teacher has yet to achieve the sublime states, how is he to teach the student? In Vajrayana at least, the seeing of the guru as the Buddha inspires faith which quiets the mind.
Yes, that's the idea. A qualified vajrayana guru is an authentic conduit of blessings of the lineage. He or she must have accomplished the tantric practice they are transmitting, they must have done a good deal of retreat. There are many other qualifications, but the idea is that the guru has a profound mastery of the teachings and practices they represent. Without having achieved realization, a guru would not be able to lead his or her students to enlightenment. The root gurus (lineage heads) such as HH Dalai Lama, HH Karmapa, HH Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, HH Dudjom Rinpoche, HH Sakya Trizin, etc... are known to be highly realized in the vajrayana. It's kind of rare to have someone of such high realization personally guide you, so we do with masters of a slightly lower caliber. Hopefully bodhisattvas with real bodhicitta. But a master can lead you to their own level of realization. Once one has seen emptiness directly, one is liberated from samsara and becomes a bodhisattva (in the mahayana and vajrayana). At that point, one is able to receive teachings directly from celestial bodhisattvas and buddhas. (I know this isn't how Theravada views things, I'm just trying to give more perspective on the Mahayana and Vajrayana understanding of what it means to have a teacher.)

On seeing the teacher as a Buddha, this is called the practice of Pure View. On the level of Mahayana, there is a practice of seeing all beings as one's mother or father, as one's own teacher or even the Buddha. It is a practice that can purify our feelings and perception of this person and connect it with a feeling of great love and compassion, gratitude, and (in the case of seeing people as a teacher, bodhisattva or the buddha) the qualities of the three jewels. This is a very common Mahayana practice.

With regard to the teacher of Vajrayana, there is a saying. "If you see the teacher as an ordinary being, you will receive the blessings of an ordinary being. If you see the teacher as a Bodhisattva, you will receive the blessings of a Bodhissatva. If you see the teacher as Buddha, you will receive the blessings of Buddha."

Here are some helpful links on understanding the nature of a vajrayana master.
On pure view:
https://studybuddhism.com/en/advanced-s ... -in-tantra
https://www.lionsroar.com/how-will-you-see-the-guru/

General:
https://studybuddhism.com/en/advanced-s ... r-relation
https://buddhaweekly.com/initiation-emp ... d-receive/

On qualifications of a vajrayana master:
https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... ru#p367143
https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... ru#p271998
https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 30#p146430

For more on qualifications of a vajrayana master (aka guru, lama), one can read the sections on student and teacher in Tshongkhapa's LamRim Chenmo ("The Great Treatise on the Stages of the Path to Enlightenment"), Kongtrul's "Buddhist Ethics," and the somewhat shorter section in Patrul Rinpoche's "Words of My Perfect Teacher."
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