Gurus in Vajrayana

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Aloka
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Re: Gurus in Vajrayana

Post by Aloka »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:49 am
What is empowerment if you do not mind me asking? Is it a recitation of sacred or secret mantras that is believed to have magical powers?
An "Empowerment"is a ceremony in which a group of students receive permission from a Vajrayana Guru to study and practice a specific teaching. There's nothing "magical" about it. If there was, then I'd have been casting spells and flying round the room by now, after having attended quite a number of these in the past, when I was involved with Tibetan Buddhism!

:anjali:
Last edited by Aloka on Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Bundokji
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Re: Gurus in Vajrayana

Post by Bundokji »

Aloka wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:13 am An "Empowerment"is a ceremony in which one receives permission from a Vajrayana Guru to study and practice a specific teaching. There's nothing "magical" about it, if there was, then I'd have been casting spells and flying round the room by now!
:D

As far as i know, in Theravada, a ceremony is needed for monastic ordination. The ritual and the permission in this case is required due to the institutional nature of monasticism. In the case of a student-guru relationship in Vajrayana , the necessity is not clear to me. Should the guru or the lama be recognized as such by their hierarchy, or anyone can be a guru?

Did you learn any secrets while practicing this path?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Aloka
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Re: Gurus in Vajrayana

Post by Aloka »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:23 am

As far as i know, in Theravada, a ceremony is needed for monastic ordination. The ritual and the permission in this case is required due to the institutional nature of monasticism. In the case of a student-guru relationship in Vajrayana , the necessity is not clear to me. Should the guru or the lama be recognized as such by their hierarchy, or anyone can be a guru?
The most important gurus are usually Tulkus ( said to be reincarnated teachers... and can be lay or ordained) from specific lineages (e.g. Gelug, Nyingma, etc. Sometimes monks and nuns or lay practitioners give teachings - but they're not described as "gurus".
Did you learn any secrets while practicing this path?
If I did, I wouldn't be telling strangers on the internet about them, that's for sure.

Have a good day. :hello:
Bundokji
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Re: Gurus in Vajrayana

Post by Bundokji »

Aloka wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:32 am If I did, I wouldn't be telling strangers on the internet about them, that's for sure.
Of course you would not. I am more interested in what is made public. Do they make promises (explicit or implicit) to the students that if they engage in the guru-student relationship, some secrets might be revealed to them? or is it reasonable to believe that this kind of expectations prevail in this tradition?

Sorry for asking you too many questions :anjali:
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
tamdrin
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Re: Gurus in Vajrayana

Post by tamdrin »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:37 am
Aloka wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:32 am If I did, I wouldn't be telling strangers on the internet about them, that's for sure.
Of course you would not. I am more interested in what is made public. Do they make promises (explicit or implicit) to the students that if they engage in the guru-student relationship, some secrets might be revealed to them? or is it reasonable to believe that this kind of expectations prevail in this tradition?

Sorry for asking you too many questions :anjali:

There isn't that much that is secret that isn't available in books these days. Practices that were, in the past, highly restricted such as the Six Yogas of Naropa are now available freely in books. Although you need to know Tibetan language to have access to all the "secrets". I can tell you this after many years experience with Vajrayana as well as Theravada you are better off grounding yourself in the basic practices of sila, samadhi, and prajna as taught in the Theravada or Sutra Mahayana. Keep it simple- there is no shortcut to enlightenment otherwise we would all be there already.
tamdrin
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Re: Gurus in Vajrayana

Post by tamdrin »

Regarding seeing your guru as a buddha, it is more of an aspiration rather than the practical experience of most people practicing vajrayana. And then again it's not even like oh he's Shakyamuni. It is based on an understanding of the buddha nature being the same in the disciples mind and in the guru's mind. A qualified guru should have attained the realization of emptiness and great compassion and put the disciples needs above his/her own.
Bundokji
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Re: Gurus in Vajrayana

Post by Bundokji »

tamdrin wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:32 pm There isn't that much that is secret that isn't available in books these days. Practices that were, in the past, highly restricted such as the Six Yogas of Naropa are now available freely in books. Although you need to know Tibetan language to have access to all the "secrets". I can tell you this after many years experience with Vajrayana as well as Theravada you are better off grounding yourself in the basic practices of sila, samadhi, and prajna as taught in the Theravada or Sutra Mahayana. Keep it simple- there is no shortcut to enlightenment otherwise we would all be there already.
Thank you for input, tamdrin :anjali:

As you said, some of the secrets have been released, and from what i saw, i can't understand the exact rationale behind this secrecy.

For example, in this video, a Tibetan lama shows some physical techniques, and they are described as being shared very reluctantly! The fact that they are very secret have been emphasized multiple times:



In the following video, a guru whispers some magical mantras in the ear of his disciple. (watch between 23:45 and 26:00). The whole documentary is interesting though as the guru kept on warning of the dire consequences for disobeying him.



To be clear, a couple of videos from youtube mean very little, but again, it raises questions on why these sorts of things and practices appeal to intelligent people? In fact, the few interactions i had with the followers of this path did not indicate that they are less intelligent, hence what lures them into this remains an open question! It could be types of personalities, or some other quality that is not apparent or something else.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
4GreatHeavenlyKings
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Re: Gurus in Vajrayana

Post by 4GreatHeavenlyKings »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:22 pm it raises questions on why these sorts of things and practices appeal to intelligent people? In fact, the few interactions i had with the followers of this path did not indicate that they are less intelligent, hence what lures them into this remains an open question! It could be types of personalities, or some other quality that is not apparent or something else.
Writing as a person who was formerly interested in Tibetan Vajrayana Buddhism, I was attracted to Tibetan Vajrayana Buddhism because Tibetan Buddhism has preserved and admires many useful Buddhist texts, such as treatises about logic and treatises refuting other religions. Tibetan Vajrayana Buddhist scholars who admire these useful Buddhist texts also admire Tibetan Vajrayana Buddhism, so I assumed that Tibetan Vajrayana Buddhism must have some benefit. But then I practised a Tibetan Vajrayana Buddhist rite capable of being done without empowerment and found it so be strange and puerile (it was all about visualizing a deity in front of a blue sky, if I recall correctly) compared to benefits from reading the Pali Canon and trustworthy commentaries.
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Aloka
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Re: Gurus in Vajrayana

Post by Aloka »

You're unlikely to find any "secrets" of Vajrayana on internet websites such as YouTube or Twitter, or on a Theravada forum like this one, Bundokji . If you're really interested, join a Tibetan Buddhist group in the outside world and take Refuge with their guru!

:anjali:
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cappuccino
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Re: Gurus in Vajrayana

Post by cappuccino »

4GreatHeavenlyKings wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:33 pm compared to benefits from reading the Pali Canon
right…
Bundokji
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Re: Gurus in Vajrayana

Post by Bundokji »

Aloka wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:43 pm You're unlikely to find any "secrets" of Vajrayana on internet websites such as YouTube or Twitter, or on a Theravada forum like this one, Bundokji . If you're really interested, join a Tibetan Buddhist group in the outside world and take Refuge with their guru!
I think secrecy is more appealing to the bored than the curios. For the curious, the world is strange enough that no amounts of revealed secrets would change it.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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cappuccino
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Re: Gurus in Vajrayana

Post by cappuccino »

here is the great secret…


The Shorter Exposition of Kamma

:candle:
plabit
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Re: Gurus in Vajrayana

Post by plabit »

Inedible wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:27 am The trouble with Vajrayana is that even if you get the books and somehow learn to practice and start getting results, without the right empowerment it is all cause to go to hell. It can be expensive to get the right empowerment. Expect your teacher to string you along for a long time and give you stuff from books about compassion.
Didn't they used to call it "initiation"? "Empowerment" seems to indicate a shift into femenism or something. Was that word used by the Tibetans prior to the 2nd or 3rd wave of femenism?
Bundokji wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:22 pm Can anyone explain to me the emphasis on finding a guru in vajrayana Buddhism?

Many thanks :anjali:
I think the answer at one level is they view it as an "initiatory path." Maybe they read some René Guénon or other writer is modern "traditionalist" philosophy (which asserts no spiritual path is valid unless initiatory into an order with a lineage going back to ancient times), or maybe the other way around (maybe he read their stuff).
plabit
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Re: Gurus in Vajrayana

Post by plabit »

Bundokji wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:22 pm Can anyone explain to me the emphasis on finding a guru in vajrayana Buddhism?

Many thanks :anjali:
...but also because gurus need money....in Tibetan version you pay for teachings. Monks (sub-lama level) even pay rent to live in the monasteries.
tamdrin
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Re: Gurus in Vajrayana

Post by tamdrin »

If you want to know more about the guru-disciple relationship in Vajrayana I suggest you read the life story of Milarepa and The Hundred Thousand Songs of Milarepa. Milarepa is one of Tibet's most famous yogis who is known to have accomplished awakening in one life. Even if you don't get into vajrayana they are still interesting and inspiring to read.

https://www.amazon.com/Hundred-Thousand ... 065&sr=8-9

https://www.amazon.com/Life-Milarepa-Tr ... 51&sr=8-10
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