Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

116. Hasten to do good; restrain your mind from
evil. He who is slow in doing good, his mind delights in evil.

117. Should a person commit evil, let him not do
it again and again. Let him not find pleasure
therein, for painful is the accumulation of evil.

118. Should a person do good, let him do it again
and again. Let him find pleasure therein, for
blissful is the accumulation of good.

Pondera wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 12:46 am At what point do we as “good” people ignore the warnings of Hell and welcome the prospects of Heaven?

Dhammanando wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 4:36 am

Pondera wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 12:46 am At what point do we as “good” people ignore the warnings of Hell and welcome the prospects of Heaven?

When we're sekhas and therefore free of the risk of arising in lower realms. Until then prudence is always advisable.

Pondera wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 4:56 am I am more convinced now that the warnings of Hell are for those without virtue.

Pondera wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 4:56 amAfter all. When the world begins to contract, the majority of people head to the a certain heaven.

There comes a time, Vāseṭṭha, when, sooner or later, after the lapse of a long, long period, this world passes away. And when this happens, beings have mostly been reborn in the Abhassara world.

Dhammanando wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 9:17 am

Pondera wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 4:56 am I am more convinced now that the warnings of Hell are for those without virtue.

Sure. But in practice that means the overwhelming majority of people, assuming that we take the ten kusala kammapathas as our standard of what makes a virtuous human.

Pondera wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 4:56 amAfter all. When the world begins to contract, the majority of people head to the a certain heaven.

I take it you're referring to this passage from the Aggaññasutta:

There comes a time, Vāseṭṭha, when, sooner or later, after the lapse of a long, long period, this world passes away. And when this happens, beings have mostly been reborn in the Abhassara world.

If so, this isn't an account of where beings are mostly headed in normal times. Rather, it has to do with a very special time when normal patterns don't apply.

When they know that a world-system's destruction is imminent, anāgāmin and arahant devas from the Suddhāvāsas come down to earth in human guise precisely in order to promote the development of jhānic merit that will enable beings to obtain rebirth in the Abhassara realm or higher. Those beings who don't heed their teaching won't make it to Abhassara but will instead be compelled to transmigrate to a lower (i.e., sub-Abhassara) realm in a different world-system.

In our time, however, we don't yet have such Suddhāvāsa devas walking among us.

What about us who are endowed with virtue? At what point do we discard the warnings of Hell and welcome the prospects of Heaven?

"And what is the food for the arising of unarisen uncertainty, or for the growth & increase of uncertainty once it has arisen? There are phenomena that act as a foothold for uncertainty. To foster inappropriate attention to them: This is the food for the arising of unarisen uncertainty, or for the growth & increase of uncertainty once it has arisen.

"From inappropriate attention
you're being chewed by your thoughts.
Relinquishing what's inappropriate,
contemplate
appropriately.

Keeping your mind on the Teacher,
the Dhamma, the Sangha, your virtues,
you will arrive at
joy,
rapture,
pleasure
without doubt.

Then, saturated
with joy,
you will put an end
to suffering & stress."

Pondera wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 12:46 am At what point do we discard the warnings of Hell and welcome the prospects of Heaven?

Pondera wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 12:46 am It’s seems in Christianity that whether one does good or bad deeds and thoughts, the Almighty Creator demands this: “Worship my son, Jesus, and you will NOT go to Hell. Otherwise, your phucked (either way).”

Buddhism is reasonable. And odd. It sees people with bright kamma going to hell. It sees people with dark kamma going to heaven.

But, the general rule is that good people go to heaven.

At what point do we as “good” people ignore the warnings of Hell and welcome the prospects of Heaven?

For surely, it is a thorn to ALWAYS worry about going to Hell. That worry is reserved for those without virtue.

What about us who are endowed with virtue? At what point do we discard the warnings of Hell and welcome the prospects of Heaven?

SteRo wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 10:35 pm

Pondera wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 12:46 am At what point do we discard the warnings of Hell and welcome the prospects of Heaven?

Not knowing "we" is not knowing "hell" and not knowing "heaven" since both, "hell" and "heaven" seem to be the fabrications of "we".

Pondera wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 12:46 am It’s seems in Christianity that whether one does good or bad deeds and thoughts, the Almighty Creator demands this: “Worship my son, Jesus, and you will NOT go to Hell. Otherwise, your phucked (either way).”

Buddhism is reasonable. And odd. It sees people with bright kamma going to hell. It sees people with dark kamma going to heaven.

But, the general rule is that good people go to heaven.

At what point do we as “good” people ignore the warnings of Hell and welcome the prospects of Heaven?

For surely, it is a thorn to ALWAYS worry about going to Hell. That worry is reserved for those without virtue.

What about us who are endowed with virtue? At what point do we discard the warnings of Hell and welcome the prospects of Heaven?

"And what are the ideas unfit for attention that he attends to? Whatever ideas such that, when he attends to them, the unarisen fermentation of sensuality arises in him, and the arisen fermentation of sensuality increases; the unarisen fermentation of becoming arises in him, and arisen fermentation of becoming increases; the unarisen fermentation of ignorance arises in him, and the arisen fermentation of ignorance increases. These are the ideas unfit for attention that he attends to.

"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'

"The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for men of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma — discerns what ideas are fit for attention and what ideas are unfit for attention. This being so, he does not attend to ideas unfit for attention and attends [instead] to ideas fit for attention.

"He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Kusala wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 11:09 am God/Allah/Yahweh whatever you call him is none other than Mara...

Dhammanando wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 10:20 am

Kusala wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 11:09 am God/Allah/Yahweh whatever you call him is none other than Mara...

As Buddhism rejects the doctrine of a world creator, surely the Buddhist equivalent of God or Allah or Yahweh would be sky flowers or the sons of a barren woman or the horns of a hare.

Pondera wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 9:12 pm Don’t we have “Gods who delight in creating”?

Along with “Gods who delight in controlling those creations”?