Bad Translations

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Coëmgenu
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Bad Translations

Post by Coëmgenu »

Moved because it doesn't fit in "Beginning Theravada."
mabw wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 6:42 amIs Religion/ Philosophy taught in public schools in your country? If so, what is covered and how is it tested in standardised tests? I know schools in the UK study the Good News Bible.
That's very unfortunate. The "Good News Bible" is a Bible paraphrase. Imagine if instead of
"Bhikkhus, all is burning. And what is the all that is burning?

"The eye is burning, forms are burning, eye-consciousness is burning, eye-contact is burning, also whatever is felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant that arises with eye-contact for its indispensable condition, that too is burning. Burning with what? Burning with the fire of lust, with the fire of hate, with the fire of delusion. I say it is burning with birth, aging and death, with sorrows, with lamentations, with pains, with griefs, with despairs.

"The ear is burning, sounds are burning...

"The nose is burning, odors are burning...

"The tongue is burning, flavors are burning...

"The body is burning, tangibles are burning...

"The mind is burning, ideas are burning, mind-consciousness is burning, mind-contact is burning, also whatever is felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant that arises with mind-contact for its indispensable condition, that too is burning. Burning with what? Burning with the fire of lust, with the fire of hate, with the fire of delusion. I say it is burning with birth, aging and death, with sorrows, with lamentations, with pains, with griefs, with despairs.
You got:
It's all on fire. It's all painful. It's all worthless. Don't mind it. Reject it. It's all lust, all hate, all delusion. All the senses, from birth to death -- it's all on fire. It's enough to make you despair.
(The Good News Suttas)

Or imagine if instead of
In the Name of Allah—the Most Compassionate, Most Merciful. All praise is for Allah—Lord of all worlds, the Most Compassionate, Most Merciful, Master of the Day of Judgment. You we worship and You we ask for help. Guide us along the Straight Path, the Path of those You have blessed—not those You are displeased with, or those who are astray.
You got
You are named Allah, and are super. You are the most at everything it is good to be the most at. We love you. Please help us and be our friend, not our enemy, because we want to be your friends, not your enemies.
(The Good News Koran)

I would hope that they would at least get the children reading actual scripture.

I think the connection to Theravada is self-explanatory, but if someone grumbles I supposed I can point out how some translations from the 1800s were mere paraphrases.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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DooDoot
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Re: Bad Translations

Post by DooDoot »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 4:17 pm All the senses, from birth to death -- it's all on fire. It's enough to make you despair.
What in heaven's sake is the above? The original sutta says the sense bases are on fire with instrumental case birth (jātiyā), aging (jarāya) & death (maraṇena). Similar to Nicodemus in Good News Bible John 3, your view of "birth, aging & death" appears to be "fleshy" . How can the sense bases be "on fire" with flesh or physical birth & death? Does flesh burn?? :shrug:
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 4:17 pmI think... Theravada is self-explanatory
:roll: It's enough to make you despair. ;)
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 4:17 pmI supposed I can point out
Its an interesting phenomena how those who study languages for some strange reason believe they understand Buddha-Dhamma
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 4:17 pm some translations from the 1800s were mere paraphrases.
Ven. Sujato's translations are 2020s rather than 1800s yet they appear far more close to 'Good News' than Rhys Davids, Horner, etc.
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 4:17 pm"Good News Bible"
KJV says:
3 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb :lol: , and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. :sage:

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen :mrgreen: ; and ye receive not our witness. :roll:

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=KJV
NASB says:
Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs [nimitta :shock: ] that You do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb ;) and be born, can he?”

5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. 12 If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... n=NASB1995
Good News says:
3 There was a Jewish leader named Nicodemus, who belonged to the party of the Pharisees. 2 One night he went to Jesus and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher sent by God. No one could perform the miracles you are doing unless God were with him.”

3 Jesus answered, “I am telling you the truth: no one can see the Kingdom of God without being born again.”

4 “How can a grown man be born again?” Nicodemus asked. “He certainly cannot enter his mother's womb :roll: and be born a second time!”

5 “I am telling you the truth,” replied Jesus, “that no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit. 6 A person is born physically of human parents, but is born spiritually of the Spirit [opapātika :shock: ]. 7 Do not be surprised because I tell you that you must all be born again. 8 The wind blows wherever it wishes; you hear the sound it makes, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. It is like that with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9 “How can this be?” asked Nicodemus.

10 Jesus answered, “You are a great teacher in Israel, and you don't know this? 11 I am telling you the truth: we speak of what we know and report what we have seen, yet none of you is willing to accept our message. 12 You do not believe me when I tell you about the things of this world; how will you ever believe me, then, when I tell you about the things of heaven?

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=GNT
So you, Coëmgenu, appear to give the impression of: (i) objecting to the GNT use of "miracles" instead of "nimitta"; (ii) objecting to the GNT mundane right view of born from parents (mātāpettika) vs born without parents (opapātika); and (iii) preferring the view of born from flesh (rupa-jati) and born from Spirit (Atman-Jati)? :shrug:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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