Bodhisatta tendencies in EBTs & early Buddhist schools

[DooDoot]

Thanks for bringing this up. More generally, there is, indeed, a tension in the texts between "here and now practicality" and the placing of the Buddhas and the Dhamma on a "cosmic scale".

The content of MN 123, similar to belated Jataka, and its conflict with both MN 64 & obvious reality, appears to demonstrate its probable belatedness. In addition, the use of 'mātukucchiṁ' in MN 123 appears to place the other suttas that use mātukucchiṁ (such as DN 15) in a belated strata of an evolving doctrine, including DN 28 & DN 33, which refer to entering a mothers womb with or without sati-sampajanna. You should lobby the self-declared sutta police (Vens. Sujato & Brahmali) to debunk 'mātukucchiṁ'.

[Ceisiwr]

...

So here are the listed doctrines of the Prajñaptivādins from Bareau's book:

1) Suffering is neither an aggregate nor exists outside of the aggregates.

2) The 12 ayatana are not finished and complete realities. Since things are merely an accumulation of elements they do not exist, and since their nature varies with time they are not finished realities.

3) Conditioned things, which evolve interpedently, being mere designations (prajñapti) are suffering.

4) Suffering is an absolute reality.

5) A man is not an agent.

6) There is no untimely death. Previous actions cause death.

7) All suffering comes from actions.

8) The Path is not a mental factor.

9) Because of accumulation of actions, development of the fruit of fruition occurs.

10) The Noble Path is attained through merit. Virtuous conduct and the merit this entails are the reason why undefiled knowledge is acquired.

11) The Path cannot be cultivated.

12) The Path cannot be destroyed. When one has attained the Noble Path, one remains there definitively.

Nothing is known about their literature. They are said to have still been existence in the 9th and 10th centuries, before dying out.

[Coëmgenu]

That's very interesting, and certainly more than I knew about them, other than assuming that they thought that something was prajñāpti. Does he say his sources? What writer is writing about them that he's citing?

[Coëmgenu]

I should change the title also to "and early Buddhist schools." Too late, alas.

[DNS]

I should change the title also to "and early Buddhist schools." Too late, alas.

I updated the title. Interesting subject; I've always been interested in the early schools and early Buddhism, especially looking for the pre-sectarian Buddhism.

[asahi]

Someone pls explain difference between early schools (how early is early) and pre-sectarian buddhism . In what way if something is pre-sectarian ?

[Coëmgenu]

More generally, there is, indeed, a tension in the texts between "here and now practicality" and the placing of the Buddhas and the Dhamma on a "cosmic scale".

Certainly. For instance, those schools who believe that the Bodhisattva had supernormal knowledge immediately from birth have to account for why he seems to have forgotten it in the intervening years between his alleged miraculous birth and his setting out on the noble quest. Those schools who believed that all Āryabodhisattvas have immaterial births and that the appearance of the human body of the Bodhisattva is illusory have to account for the caesarean section. If the Bodhisattva spontaneously appeared in illusory form the moment Māyādevī was opened by the surgeons, why did she need to be opened? If the Bodhisattva knew of his previous births and his last life in the Tuṣita, when did he forget it before going forth from the palace? They are tricky questions. Sources like the Lalitavistara vaipulya want to answer these questions while simultaneously affirming the Buddha's (Bodhisattva's on more than a few occasions) sarvajñāna, indeed answer them by appealing to supernormal knowledges of various sorts. Even later sources like the Saddharmapuṇḍarīka explain that the Buddha appears "human-like" so that people do not despair that they will never become like him, as another example.

[Coëmgenu]

Someone pls explain difference between early schools (how early is early) and pre-sectarian buddhism . In what way if something is pre-sectarian ?

The "early schools" are the 18 or so schools from which we get EBTs. There is no Buddhist literature from the pre-sectarian period unless it was flawlessly preserved by a sect during the sectarian period. No one is sure when Buddhism first became sectarian, because no one is sure we can trust the differing sectarian accounts of how the schisms happened. Some believe that Aśokarāja lived during the time of pre-sectarian Buddhism, but these are in the minority in holding this view.

We don't have all of the EBTs of the early schools. The EBTs to various degrees are sectarian or non-sectarian. The Abhidharma literatures of the schools are always treated as sectarian, although that doesn't mean that there are not Abhidharma traditions more closely related to other Abhidharma traditions across sectarian lines and vice-versa.

[Aloka]

.

Bhikkhu Sujato wrote this pdf a number of years ago:

Sects & Sectarianism - The origins of Buddhist schools


http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documen ... Sujato.pdf

[SteRo]

IMO, thoughts?

It seems that the brain of human species does bring forth tendencies of egocentrism and tendencies of altruism. This can be observed outside of buddhist religion and therefore it isn't surprising that it also manifests within buddhist religion - although in an exaggerated mode that is characteristic for religions.

[Coëmgenu]

I was hoping for thoughts with significant and relevant semantic content, but that will do too.

[asahi]

The "early schools" are the 18 or so schools from which we get EBTs. There is no Buddhist literature from the pre-sectarian period unless it was flawlessly preserved by a sect during the sectarian period. No one is sure when Buddhism first became sectarian, because no one is sure we can trust the differing sectarian accounts of how the schisms happened. Some believe that Aśokarāja lived during the time of pre-sectarian Buddhism, but these are in the minority in holding this view.

We don't have all of the EBTs of the early schools. The EBTs to various degrees are sectarian or non-sectarian. The Abhidharma literatures of the schools are always treated as sectarian, although that doesn't mean that there are not Abhidharma traditions more closely related to other Abhidharma traditions across sectarian lines and vice-versa.

So it seems nothing can be determined to be of Pre-sectarian .

[Coëmgenu]

Unless it was preserved accurately by an ancient sect. The Pāli Canon's early bits could be completely accurate, or one of the sects' āgamas. That is what EBT studies is supposed to be an endeavour to uncover.

[Ceisiwr]

That's very interesting, and certainly more than I knew about them, other than assuming that they thought that something was prajñāpti. Does he say his sources? What writer is writing about them that he's citing?

Yes sorry. His sources are Vasumitra, Bhavya and Vinītadeva.