"Methodless Method" includes methods; 'Just sit' is not literal just sit

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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"Methodless Method" includes methods; 'Just sit' is not literal just sit

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

wikipedia book: ILLUMINATING SILENCE (Insights on the Path of Chinese Zen)
  • When Chan was transmitted to Japan from China, the sectarian divide between the Linji and Caodong sects, with their respective methods of meditation, was well established. Hence we have come to associate Rinzai with koan practice, and Soto with shikantaza, or ‘just sitting’, facing a wall.
    The practice of Silent Illumination derives from the twin Indian practices of samatha (calming the mind) and vipassana (insight into its nature) as proposed by the Buddha himself. In Silent Illumination the term ‘silence’ indicates calming, while ‘illumination’ refers initially to awareness of the clear presence of silence.

    ...

    The words ‘silent’ and ‘illumination’ are both essential and bring out clearly the conditions of practice, the method and the concepts necessary for success. Silent Illumination practice itself developed from the old Indian practices of shamata and vipassana. These mean ‘calming the mind’ and ‘insightful contemplation’ respectively. Before the time of Hongzhi, Chinese masters commonly taught these as separate methods. Sometimes in Japan these methods are also used as supplementary practices to shikantaza. Calming the mind commonly utilises watching or counting the breath, whereas insightful contemplation requires the practitioner to watch the practice with a questioning intent – asking what this experience actually is.
    In Silent Illumination we use these two processes together. Not only does this improve the efficacy of meditation, but it also avoids the complexities of practising with successive systems. From the time of Hongzhi the integrated practice of Silent Illumination became the main method in the Caodong School. It is the simultaneous practice of calming the mind with questioning observation. When the mind does not move, that is silence. When you become insightfully aware of that very same stillness, then that is illumination. While watching moving thoughts is called vipassana, watching silence is the combination of calming and a questioning observation. That is Silent Illumination.

    ...

    Glossary from the book itself:
    • Shikantaza --- (Jap.) See Silent Illumination
    • Vipassana --- A form of meditative practice to gain insight into the three distinguishing marks (seals) of all Dharmas (phenomena); i.e. impermanence, suffering, and no-self (emptiness).
    • Shamata --- Meditative method of calming the mind in order to gain meditative insight, most frequently using methods of observing one’s breath during meditation.
    • Silent Illumination --- (Ch. mo chao) Method of meditation in which the practitioner places full awareness on the act of ‘just sitting’, in order to bring the mind to a state of supreme calmness (silence), and deep insight into its own nature (illumination). In Japanese Zen, a related practice is called shikantaza. Mo chao may also be translated as ‘shining silence’.

imo, the phrase 'Methodless method' is just a 'marketing' word which seems to distort the essence of shikantaza.

In general, I like shikantaza, so far.

❤️
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: "Methodless Method" includes methods; 'Just sit' is not literal just sit

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

I like this:
  • Soto Zen Buddhism is distinguished by its focus on the down-to-earth practice of “everyday zen.” It encourages awareness of the workings of one’s own mind as a means of living mindfully in all areas of daily life – at home, at work and in the community.
    ...
    Zazen means ‘sitting meditation’.

    It is being oneself, with nothing extra, in harmony with the way things are.

    It is the simple practice of looking directly at life as it is.

    It is being aware of one’s true feelings and thoughts in each moment.
    https://www.szba.org/introducing-soto-zen
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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Dan74
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Re: "Methodless Method" includes methods; 'Just sit' is not literal just sit

Post by Dan74 »

Contemporary Chan teacher Guo Gu, just wrote a book about it. He is worth checking out.

https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/book ... by-guo-gu/

He also puts out lots of videos and it's possible to join him via Zoom for a Dharma talk and Q&A, I believe. Or visit his centre in Florida.
_/|\_
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: "Methodless Method" includes methods; 'Just sit' is not literal just sit

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Dan74 wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:46 am Contemporary Chan teacher Guo Gu, just wrote a book about it. He is worth checking out.

https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/book ... by-guo-gu/

He also puts out lots of videos and it's possible to join him via Zoom for a Dharma talk and Q&A, I believe. Or visit his centre in Florida.


:thanks:

:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
SteRo
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Re: "Methodless Method" includes methods; 'Just sit' is not literal just sit

Post by SteRo »

Literally "just sitting" might reveal metaphorical "just sitting" which then might be conducted regardless of sitting, walking, lying, talking, or being silent or whatever.
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: "Methodless Method" includes methods; 'Just sit' is not literal just sit

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

SteRo wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:49 pm Literally "just sitting" might reveal metaphorical "just sitting" which then might be conducted regardless of sitting, walking, lying, talking, or being silent or whatever.

Yes.

They even use phrase like: "posture of the mind" in instructions.

They have walking meditation with guidelines, for example: go forward only half-footstep with each stepping, & 'only turn right' while walking meditation.

The one who actually sits is the mind, imo.

:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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bodom
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Re: "Methodless Method" includes methods; 'Just sit' is not literal just sit

Post by bodom »

I have always liked Chan and of all the Mahayana schools I believe the Chan tradition is the closest to what the Buddha taught in the Pali Canon. That and Soto Zen of which I used to practice. If I wasn't a Theravadan I would definitely be a Chan Buddhist.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
woodsman
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Re: "Methodless Method" includes methods; 'Just sit' is not literal just sit

Post by woodsman »

bodom wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:08 pm I have always liked Chan and of all the Mahayana schools I believe the Chan tradition is the closest to what the Buddha taught in the Pali Canon. That and Soto Zen of which I used to practice. If I wasn't a Theravadan I would definitely be a Chan Buddhist.

:anjali:
Begs the question why choose Theravada over Soto Zen then? :anjali:
SteRo
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Re: "Methodless Method" includes methods; 'Just sit' is not literal just sit

Post by SteRo »

woodsman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:47 pm Begs the question why choose Theravada over Soto Zen then?
Begs the question why choose Soto Zen for just sitting? :lol:
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woodsman
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Re: "Methodless Method" includes methods; 'Just sit' is not literal just sit

Post by woodsman »

SteRo wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:08 pm
woodsman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:47 pm Begs the question why choose Theravada over Soto Zen then?
Begs the question why choose Soto Zen for just sitting? :lol:
:toast:
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: "Methodless Method" includes methods; 'Just sit' is not literal just sit

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

woodsman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:47 pm
bodom wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:08 pm I have always liked Chan and of all the Mahayana schools I believe the Chan tradition is the closest to what the Buddha taught in the Pali Canon. That and Soto Zen of which I used to practice. If I wasn't a Theravadan I would definitely be a Chan Buddhist.

:anjali:
Begs the question why choose Theravada over Soto Zen then? :anjali:
Because just sitting is not merely just sitting. And, some may be quite doing well with "just sitting" of soto; others may want to explore more.

I believe what he said, because it seems he tends not to involve in the endless discussions despite his present here as a moderator.

:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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bodom
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Re: "Methodless Method" includes methods; 'Just sit' is not literal just sit

Post by bodom »

SteRo wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:08 pm
woodsman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:47 pm Begs the question why choose Theravada over Soto Zen then?
Begs the question why choose Soto Zen for just sitting? :lol:
To be short and to the point I can't get passed the Mahayana sutras. I don't believe they are the words of the Buddha.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
SteRo
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Re: "Methodless Method" includes methods; 'Just sit' is not literal just sit

Post by SteRo »

bodom wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:06 am
SteRo wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:08 pm
woodsman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:47 pm Begs the question why choose Theravada over Soto Zen then?
Begs the question why choose Soto Zen for just sitting? :lol:
To be short and to the point I can't get passed the Mahayana sutras. I don't believe they are the words of the Buddha.
:?: your words seem to be mis-addressed. i really meant (addressed to woodsman) that the thought of needing a system of thought or teaching for just sitting is funny.
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bodom
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Re: "Methodless Method" includes methods; 'Just sit' is not literal just sit

Post by bodom »

SteRo wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:23 am
bodom wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:06 am
SteRo wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:08 pm

Begs the question why choose Soto Zen for just sitting? :lol:
To be short and to the point I can't get passed the Mahayana sutras. I don't believe they are the words of the Buddha.
:?: your words seem to be mis-addressed. i really meant (addressed to woodsman) that the thought of needing a system of thought or teaching for just sitting is funny.
Yes obviously my post was meant for woodsman. Thanks for pointing that out I had posted way after my bedtime and was a bit tired at the time lol.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Re: "Methodless Method" includes methods; 'Just sit' is not literal just sit

Post by DooDoot »

The suttas (MN 118; SN 48.10) say the method is "letting go" ("vossagga"). Therefore, "just sit" appears closer to the Buddha's teaching than the yogic exercises & methods of the Visuddhimagga & the Burmese technique creators such as Mahasi, U Ba Kin, etc.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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