Western Buddhist cult?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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DNS
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Re: Western Buddhist cult?

Post by DNS »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 1:57 pm I only know of Eastern Theravāda cults, not Western ones, but I don't doubt they exist somewhere.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Lenz

Frederick Lenz, aka "Rama" was a cult leader who taught what he called "American Buddhism." He was a successful businessman and author and left an estate of $23 million when he committed suicide in 1998. His estate was mostly dispersed to various Buddhist groups since he had no children.
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Re: Western Buddhist cult?

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Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:57 pm The usage of "cult" that SteRo is pulling out of the dictionary, particularly usage 3 from the quoted material, is an older conservative and neutral sense of cult. "The Cult of the Nazarene" for instance, in this usage, refers to Christianity before it had doctrines and was systematic. At the cult of the Nazarene stage, a theorized stage of Christianity, it was just a loose bunch of Jesus-enthusiasts with little organization who had "agape meals," a prototype eucharist, and met in gatherings in their houses rather than public buildings.
I agree, the definition SteRo quoted looks like an older definition. I don't doubt that this definition exists, but just think it's dated. A better definition would be to focus on the characteristics of a cult, including:

1. Devotion to the leader, usually the founder of the movement, someone who is currently alive. If the movement survives the death of the leader/founder, it could transition to genuine religion status.
2. Only teachings and books from the leader are allowed, no outside reading accepted.
3. Controlling personal behaviors of the adherents including the leader choosing your spouse, living accommodations, etc.
4. Heavy emphasis on proselytizing.
5. The leader keeps his distance and only comes out occasionally to keep up the mystique about him and to create anticipation and excitement in the devotees.
6. Many times, as part of being accepted into the group, one must relinquish all money and possessions to the group.

Using my definition above, Buddhism doesn't fit any of the characteristics. However, there could be individual Buddhist groups that have moved in this direction.
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Re: Western Buddhist cult?

Post by SarathW »

DNS wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:10 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:57 pm The usage of "cult" that SteRo is pulling out of the dictionary, particularly usage 3 from the quoted material, is an older conservative and neutral sense of cult. "The Cult of the Nazarene" for instance, in this usage, refers to Christianity before it had doctrines and was systematic. At the cult of the Nazarene stage, a theorized stage of Christianity, it was just a loose bunch of Jesus-enthusiasts with little organization who had "agape meals," a prototype eucharist, and met in gatherings in their houses rather than public buildings.
I agree, the definition SteRo quoted looks like an older definition. I don't doubt that this definition exists, but just think it's dated. A better definition would be to focus on the characteristics of a cult, including:

1. Devotion to the leader, usually the founder of the movement, someone who is currently alive. If the movement survives the death of the leader/founder, it could transition to genuine religion status.
2. Only teachings and books from the leader are allowed, no outside reading accepted.
3. Controlling personal behaviors of the adherents including the leader choosing your spouse, living accommodations, etc.
4. Heavy emphasis on proselytizing.
5. The leader keeps his distance and only comes out occasionally to keep up the mystique about him and to create anticipation and excitement in the devotees.
6. Many times, as part of being accepted into the group, one must relinquish all money and possessions to the group.

Using my definition above, Buddhism doesn't fit any of the characteristics. However, there could be individual Buddhist groups that have moved in this direction.
:goodpost:
This is how I understand it too.
For instance, general Christianity, Hinduism, and Islam do not qualify as a cult even though there could be certain individuals who may create a cult out of them.
I don't think Trump comes under the status of a cult either. perhaps Hitler and Chinese leaders or Russian leaders may qualify under this umbrella due to the dictatorship.
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Re: Western Buddhist cult?

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SarathW wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:48 pm perhaps Hitler and Chinese leaders or Russian leaders may qualify under this umbrella due to the dictatorship.
Speaking of politics, come to think of it, communism is a perfect match with my definition for a cult.

1. They deify Marx, Engels, Lenin, Mao, Che, etc. During USSR, they had an embalmed Lenin in a case for everyone to come and see.
2. The Communist Manifesto is their "bible" and Chinese went everywhere with the "Little Red Book" when they had communism.
3. Controlling behaviors very much a part of communism.
4. Communist philosophy taught at a young age and proselytizing was encouraged.
5. The Politburo and Inner Circles had rock star status, not accessible to the masses.
6. Relinquishing your possessions, well ... duh.
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Re: Western Buddhist cult?

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DNS wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:01 pm
SarathW wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:48 pm perhaps Hitler and Chinese leaders or Russian leaders may qualify under this umbrella due to the dictatorship.
Speaking of politics, come to think of it, communism is a perfect match with my definition for a cult.

1. They deify Marx, Engels, Lenin, Mao, Che, etc. During USSR, they had an embalmed Lenin in a case for everyone to come and see.
2. The Communist Manifesto is their "bible" and Chinese went everywhere with the "Little Red Book" when they had communism.
3. Controlling behaviors very much a part of communism.
4. Communist philosophy taught at a young age and proselytizing was encouraged.
5. The Politburo and Inner Circles had rock star status, not accessible to the masses.
6. Relinquishing your possessions, well ... duh.
Being a former member of the Stalinist Communist Party and then the Trotskyist Socialist Party, I can confirm this. If not an outright cult it gets very, very cult like.
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Post by sunnat »

These acquired fantasies about communism demonstrated by the above postings ignores fundamental facts. There has never been a society according to the principles of communism. There have been attempts to establish such societies, perhaps most notably in Russia in 1917.

Stalin subverted the attempt and the result is wrongly, opportunistically, held up by mindless devotees to Capitalism as an example of communism.

If unthinking devotion to poorly understood principles is a sign of Cultism then this display of anti-communism falls within that category. Likewise, the devotion to a pope as an arbiter of the word of god or the devotion to such aberrant monstrosities as trump. Likewise the devotion to my opinions, my thoughts, my ideas. All ignorant conceit.
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Re: Western Buddhist cult?

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DNS wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:02 pmhe committed suicide in 1998.
It appears did not overcome dukkha.
He stated that his death was a protest against how spiritual teachers are treated in America.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Western Buddhist cult?

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Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Re:

Post by Ceisiwr »

sunnat wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:19 am These acquired fantasies about communism demonstrated by the above postings ignores fundamental facts. There has never been a society according to the principles of communism. There have been attempts to establish such societies, perhaps most notably in Russia in 1917.

Stalin subverted the attempt and the result is wrongly, opportunistically, held up by mindless devotees to Capitalism as an example of communism.

If unthinking devotion to poorly understood principles is a sign of Cultism then this display of anti-communism falls within that category. Likewise, the devotion to a pope as an arbiter of the word of god or the devotion to such aberrant monstrosities as trump. Likewise the devotion to my opinions, my thoughts, my ideas. All ignorant conceit.
What you missed is that it will always end that way, because in order to get that society you need a large state to take the property and to suppress differing opinions such those of conservatives, libertarians, free market capitalists and so on. The end goal is an ideal, and to get to this distant hypothetical ideal (itself founded on questionable premises) you have to spill a lot of blood. I’m glad I’ve left that insane asylum. If you want to stay in it, well, good luck with that.

Imagine living in the 21st Century and hating capitalism. Actually I don’t need to imagine. I used to be that guy. It was dumb. Communism isn’t compatible with freedom, and in the end I came down on freedom’s side of the wall ;). It’s not compatible with the Dhamma either, so no Buddhist should support or promote it.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Re:

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:46 pm What you missed is that it will always end that way, because
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Re: Western Buddhist cult?

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I was thinking of that one too, but wasn't sure if it was just another of the all too often teacher sexual misconduct behaviors; but it appears they did have cult like qualities even beyond that.

Since Sangharakshita has passed away, it appears to be becoming more mainstream.
In 1980 Sangharakshita wrote of his "conviction that the less the FWBO is involved with 'Buddhist groups' and with individuals affiliated to existing Buddhist traditions, the better."[38] Currently, however, the community is a member of the European Buddhist Union and the Network of Buddhist Organisations,[39] individual members of the order serve on the board of the International Network of Engaged Buddhists,[40] and the FWBO's former magazine, Dharma Life,[41] frequently carried articles by Buddhists from other organisations.
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Re: Western Buddhist cult?

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DNS wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:45 pm
I was thinking of that one too, but wasn't sure if it was just another of the all too often teacher sexual misconduct behaviors; but it appears they did have cult like qualities even beyond that.

Since Sangharakshita has passed away, it appears to be becoming more mainstream.
In 1980 Sangharakshita wrote of his "conviction that the less the FWBO is involved with 'Buddhist groups' and with individuals affiliated to existing Buddhist traditions, the better."[38] Currently, however, the community is a member of the European Buddhist Union and the Network of Buddhist Organisations,[39] individual members of the order serve on the board of the International Network of Engaged Buddhists,[40] and the FWBO's former magazine, Dharma Life,[41] frequently carried articles by Buddhists from other organisations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triratna_ ... _Community
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