Buddhism and Capitalism.

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8150
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Buddhism and Capitalism.

Post by Coëmgenu »

Zenny wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:34 pmWho herself honours these athletes,film stars,millionaires,and paedophiles like Jimmy Saville with knighthoods etc,etc...
I'm sure that Jimmy Saville was specifically knighted for his contributions to British pedophilia.

That was sarcasm.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Zenny
Posts: 999
Joined: Wed May 12, 2021 12:09 pm

Re: Buddhism and Capitalism.

Post by Zenny »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:38 pm
Zenny wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:32 pm
So it seems you can interpret a sutra for whatever purpose you wish.
How else would you interpret the Wheel-Turning Monarch?
Maybe mister Lewis forgot the Queen is a billionnaire with ill gotten gains. A hoarder of wealth. Who herself honours these athletes,film stars,millionaires,and paedophiles like Jimmy Saville with knighthoods etc,etc...
As far as I’m aware she isn’t a billionaire, but it wouldn’t matter to me if she was.
Wheel turning monarch? Royal Propoganda,just like yourself.
She is. And your lack of care shows your uncritical support.
It's very instructive how you always avoid salient questions and points. Like a good apologist!
Surely a person who thinks themselves ordained by God and birth to rule over and opress people is the very definition of narcissism!?
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
Focus!
Zenny
Posts: 999
Joined: Wed May 12, 2021 12:09 pm

Re: Buddhism and Capitalism.

Post by Zenny »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:42 pm
Zenny wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:34 pmWho herself honours these athletes,film stars,millionaires,and paedophiles like Jimmy Saville with knighthoods etc,etc...
I'm sure that Jimmy Saville was specifically knighted for his contributions to British pedophilia.

That was sarcasm.
It was well known that Mr Saville was a paedo and nasty person.
And how is that investigation of her son and Epstein going?
The royals are neck deep in horrible deeds.
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
Focus!
Zenny
Posts: 999
Joined: Wed May 12, 2021 12:09 pm

Re: Buddhism and Capitalism.

Post by Zenny »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:38 pm
Zenny wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:32 pm
So it seems you can interpret a sutra for whatever purpose you wish.
How else would you interpret the Wheel-Turning Monarch?
Maybe mister Lewis forgot the Queen is a billionnaire with ill gotten gains. A hoarder of wealth. Who herself honours these athletes,film stars,millionaires,and paedophiles like Jimmy Saville with knighthoods etc,etc...
As far as I’m aware she isn’t a billionaire, but it wouldn’t matter to me if she was. Lewis’s point was the spiritual role the Monarch plays in society. All monarchs are essentially high priests or priestesses.
A high priest hoarding wealth,promoting paedophiles,wars,colonialism.
Did your high priest object to the gulf War which was done on a lie
purely for oil and business? Is that spiritual leadership?
I'm sure Buddha does not approve.
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
Focus!
User avatar
SDC
Posts: 9062
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: Buddhism and Capitalism.

Post by SDC »

Zenny wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:11 pm Of course. Morality is always judged individually.
But it seems you are just special pleading or using whataboutism.
A class that justifies its obscence wealth and continues to strive for more is comprised of more immoral individuals. Surely you have been privy to the talk or mentality of the big business class?
You’re consolidating intention of individuals based on a common external measure. I’m unwilling to accept that criteria as the most accurate way to discuss this topic. The dimension of class is secondary and therefore a less accurate means of understanding why a collection of laws, rules and practices increase the likelihood of certain people accumulating wealth. What is more accurate is to say that lack of wisdom, lack of virtue, lack of restraint and lack of awareness of the four noble truths is the reason why individuals sink.

And yes, I have some hundred millionaire in-laws.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
Zenny
Posts: 999
Joined: Wed May 12, 2021 12:09 pm

Re: Buddhism and Capitalism.

Post by Zenny »

SDC wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:54 pm
Zenny wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:11 pm Of course. Morality is always judged individually.
But it seems you are just special pleading or using whataboutism.
A class that justifies its obscence wealth and continues to strive for more is comprised of more immoral individuals. Surely you have been privy to the talk or mentality of the big business class?
You’re consolidating intention of individuals based on a common external measure. I’m unwilling to accept that criteria as the most accurate way to discuss this topic. The dimension of class is secondary and therefore a less accurate means of understanding why a collection of laws, rules and practices increase the likelihood of certain people accumulating wealth. What is more accurate is to say that lack of wisdom, lack of virtue, lack of restraint and lack of awareness of the four noble truths is the reason why individuals sink.

And yes, I have some hundred millionaire in-laws.
It's always funny when I hear religious folks claim that criminality always comes from ignorance. More,specifically ignorance of the one special super religion. Do you not understand that many people rejoice in their criminality,they don't want to change at all.Their only fear is getting caught. Nothing to do with noble truths or them not finding jesus. You know even knowledgeable buddhist priests commit atrocities. Is that ignorance?
A group of elite people of whom most individually agree that they are entitled to rule,hoard wealth and steal the resources of others is immoral. If you can't see or discuss that more fool you.
And worse if you have close relatives with money like that and yet you still can't see the injustice and inequality.
Seems many buddhists whilst praising Monkhood with one hand ignore greed on the other.
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
Focus!
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17187
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Buddhism and Capitalism.

Post by DNS »

Zenny wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:03 pm And of course,I reject socialism as well,which is just disguised capitalism.
Small business is wholly different from capitalism as we see it.
So,what would Buddha say?
So you are not opposed to capitalism? It appears you are opposed to crony capitalism, which is a good position to take. Giving corporate welfare and no-bid contracts to cronies is not capitalism; it's just corruption. The Libertarians, which are the most laissez-faire capitalists were opposed to the government bail-outs of big banks during the great financial recession 2007-2012.
Zenny wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:50 pm . . . the gulf War which was done on a lie
purely for oil and business? Is that spiritual leadership?
I'm sure Buddha does not approve.
Again, it was the Libertarians, the capitalists who were opposed to the Gulf Wars and wars, in general (along with some others from other political viewpoints, but the point being that the capitalists were opposed to it).

While most Americans were beating the war drum and approving G W Bush's war and no-bid contract to Haliburton, I was writing against the war, even though it was an unpopular position to take at the time (2003).
Zenny
Posts: 999
Joined: Wed May 12, 2021 12:09 pm

Re: Buddhism and Capitalism.

Post by Zenny »

DNS wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:40 pm
Zenny wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:03 pm And of course,I reject socialism as well,which is just disguised capitalism.
Small business is wholly different from capitalism as we see it.
So,what would Buddha say?
So you are not opposed to capitalism? It appears you are opposed to crony capitalism, which is a good position to take. Giving corporate welfare and no-bid contracts to cronies is not capitalism; it's just corruption. The Libertarians, which are the most laissez-faire capitalists were opposed to the government bail-outs of big banks during the great financial recession 2007-2012.
Zenny wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:50 pm . . . the gulf War which was done on a lie
purely for oil and business? Is that spiritual leadership?
I'm sure Buddha does not approve.
Again, it was the Libertarians, the capitalists who were opposed to the Gulf Wars and wars, in general (along with some others from other political viewpoints, but the point being that the capitalists were opposed to it).

While most Americans were beating the war drum and approving G W Bush's war and no-bid contract to Haliburton, I was writing against the war, even though it was an unpopular position to take at the time (2003).
Small business,trade, small service businesses,working your own small land plot for personal use are all brilliant. Owning your own house and small business is brilliant. I would just class this as small scale trade or commerce.
I class capitalism as big business,big industry,huge wealth concentrations,etc. I have some sympathy with libertarians,but not those who still believe in big corporations and concentrated wealth.
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
Focus!
SteRo
Posts: 5950
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am
Location: Εὐρώπη Eurṓpē

Re: Buddhism and Capitalism.

Post by SteRo »

Zenny wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:12 pm Personally speaking I find buddhism and in fact any true spirituality to be diametrically opposed to any sort of capitalism.
Capitalism extols consumption and the profit motive,AKA Greed.
Whilst buddhism rejects greed and Instead focuses on true happiness.
Why are many buddhists still in favour of capitalism? Is the ruling class ideology still obscuring their thinking process?
My impression is that capitalism is compatible with buddhism. There are however some buddhists who are conditioned by socialist ideas ... especially in the area of "engaged buddhism". Even though socialist ideas seem to be more popular in mahayanist circles I recall however having come across a writing of a thai theravada monk about "dhammic socialism" or similar.
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 6492
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun

Re: Buddhism and Capitalism.

Post by Dhammanando »

Zenny wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:52 pm And monarchy is justified by divine right?
No, not by divine right.

In the Aggañña Sutta the foundation of monarchy is represented as a contractarian one, rather similar to that of Thomas Hobbes (who severely criticised Sir Robert Filmer's divine right defence of monarchy).
Now some being, Vāseṭṭha, of greedy disposition, watching over his own plot, stole another plot and made use of it. They took him and holding him fast, said: Truly, good being, thou hast wrought evil in that, while watching thine own plot, thou hast stolen another plot and made use of it. See, good being, that thou do not such a thing again! Ay, sirs, he replied. And a second time he did so. And yet a third. And again they took him and admonished him. Some smote him with the hand, some with clods, some with sticks. With such a beginning, Vāseṭṭha, did stealing appear, and censure and lying and punishment became known.

Now those beings, Vāseṭṭha, gathered themselves together, and bewailed these things, saying: From our evil deeds, sirs, becoming manifest, inasmuch as stealing, censure, lying, punishment have become known, what if we were to select a certain being, who should be wrathful when indignation is right, who should censure that which should rightly be censured and should banish him who deserves to be banished? But we will give him in return a proportion of the rice.

Then, Vāseṭṭha, those beings went to the being among them who was the handsomest, the best favoured, the most attractive, the most capable and said to him: Come now, good being, be indignant at that whereat one should rightly be indignant, censure that which should rightly be censured, banish him who deserves to be banished. And we will contribute to thee a proportion of our rice.

And he consented, and did so, and they gave him a proportion of their rice.

Chosen by the whole people, Vāseṭṭha, is what is meant by Mahā Sammata; so Mahā Sammata (the Great Elect) was the first standing phrase to arise [for such a one].

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/dn27
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
sunnat
Posts: 1431
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:08 am

Post by sunnat »

Charles the first of England promoted the idea that the monarchy was a divine right, answerable only to god. The first capitalist revolution, bringing in the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, in 1643, overthrew that monarchy.
_____

"Property is theft!" - Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, 1840
Bundokji
Posts: 6494
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Buddhism and Capitalism.

Post by Bundokji »

I tend to prefer capitalism because it is morally neutral. It does not condemn greed nor impose it, but allows individuals to seek material wealth if they want to either through greed or through just means. Within the system, some individuals might opt to refrain from such pursuits. Those who experience status anxiety or call for social justice somehow turn material wealth into a dogma of well-being.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: Buddhism and Capitalism.

Post by confusedlayman »

Communism is bad idea.. it oppose law of kamma
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
Zenny
Posts: 999
Joined: Wed May 12, 2021 12:09 pm

Re: Buddhism and Capitalism.

Post by Zenny »

So no buddhist is gonna speak about the greed and oppression of current capitalism?
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
Focus!
User avatar
Nicholas Weeks
Posts: 4210
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:26 pm
Location: USA West Coast

Re: Buddhism and Capitalism.

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

Zenny wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:44 am So no buddhist is gonna speak about the greed and oppression of current capitalism?
Only foolish ones will put exclusive blame on any system, ism or ideology.

Greed & oppression are character vices of humans that will always be with us.
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
Post Reply