Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Zenny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:02 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:59 pm
Zenny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:41 pm
Its both. I've just told you above what it is. Feigning confusion won't wash with me matey.
How do you know your experiences are yours? What is that makes you know they are yours? Clue; identity . Your Self.
How is it both feeling and that which feels? If it’s feeling, then the self rises and dies many times a day. How is the self of one feeling the same self as the other? It also doesn’t tell me what this self is. Feeling is just pain, for example. Where is the atta in the fleeting experience of pain? If it’s what is experiencing pain, what is it? What is atta? What does the concept relate to?
Its both. Simple. It ain't no concept,it's experience.
How is it both? As I say, when I experience pain there is just pain. I don’t detect any self in the pain. It’s just a sensation. I’ve never experienced a self in pain. What is it you have experienced in pain which leads you to claim feeling is a self? If it’s that which experiences pain, then what is this atta? You say it’s experience, but experience relates to a whole range of phenomena. Where is the atta in experience? You haven’t given a satisfactory answer as of yet, for something that’s so obvious.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Zenny
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Zenny »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:05 pm
Zenny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:02 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:59 pm

How is it both feeling and that which feels? If it’s feeling, then the self rises and dies many times a day. How is the self of one feeling the same self as the other? It also doesn’t tell me what this self is. Feeling is just pain, for example. Where is the atta in the fleeting experience of pain? If it’s what is experiencing pain, what is it? What is atta? What does the concept relate to?
Its both. Simple. It ain't no concept,it's experience.
How is it both? As I say, when I experience pain there is just pain. I don’t detect any self in the pain. It’s just a sensation. I’ve never experienced a self in pain. What is it you have experienced in pain which leads you to claim feeling is a self? If it’s that which experiences pain, then what is this atta? You say it’s experience, but experience relates to a whole range of phenomena. Where is the atta in experience? You haven’t given a satisfactory answer as of yet, for something that’s so obvious.
I have. But your too pedantic and dogmatic to realise.
Every sensation you feel you also know it's you,and what the sensation could lead to. There is YOUR self.
It's obvious to me,and most normal people.
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
Focus!
Zenny
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Zenny »

SteRo wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:03 pm
Zenny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:52 pm
SteRo wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:47 pm

Of course "you are" neither this nor that but buddhist conditioning manifests itself nevertheless when associating "escape from". Your OP is getting at nothing but supports manifesting conditionings nevertheless.
The irony of this post! The man has brainwashed himself with science and intellectual gymnastics. Then presumes to talk about buddhist conditioning when a buddhist/Hindu term is used.
If I use the word logic is that Greek conditioning?!
What a caricature and insecure robot you are!
Maybe irony, maybe not. It's a display of conditioning. If the word logic is used the conditioning manifests in the concept not in the word.

"Caricature"?
Definition of caricature

(Entry 1 of 2)
1 : exaggeration by means of often ludicrous distortion of parts or characteristics
2 : a representation especially in literature or art that has the qualities of caricature
3 : a distortion so gross as to seem like caricature
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/caricature
:shrug:

"Insecure robot"? That seems to be inconsistent since insecurity might be a trait of humans, not of robots. But yes ... there is a similarity with "robot" since there is no "I am" but conditionings drive interactions.
More pedantry and cliches.
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Zenny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:48 am ...
Hi,

May I know what is your background in zen. I ask this question because from outsider perspective, I like Soto Zen much, thinking it is quite down to earth & pure. However, from what I sense, the approach of yours seems outside the pure soto zen domain and have interest in debating against "religions" to make your self more secure about your practice. Is your zen practice not of soto zen? Why do you have so much enthusiasm in discussing "non-zennish" matters like Buddhism & Hinduism? Or, do you think the teachings of Buddhism & Hinduism are compatible with zen practice of your choice? Or, are you here to save us from Buddhism to a better realm of zen? Why are you here in this forum? What are you (a non-buddhist zen practitioner) doing here actively discussing things on a Theravada Buddhist forum? Do you want to learn from this forum, or do you want to teach the members of a Theravada Buddhist forum that anatta doctrine is a wrong one?

In short, why are you ( a non-buddhist zen practitioner) enthusiastically participating here on DWT?

Thanks.

:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Zenny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:09 pm
I have. But your too pedantic and dogmatic to realise.
Every sensation you feel you also know it's you,and what the sensation could lead to. There is YOUR self.
It's obvious to me,and most normal people.
I’m afraid you haven’t. You’ve given assertions, circular reasoning and argumentum ad populum. Not that impressive to say the least. So far nothing you have said has lead me to believe your proposal. Anyways I’ve other things to be doing today.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Zenny
Posts: 999
Joined: Wed May 12, 2021 12:09 pm

Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Zenny »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:13 pm
Zenny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:48 am ...
Hi,

May I know what is your background in zen. I ask this question because from outsider perspective, I like Soto Zen much, thinking it is quite down to earth & pure. However, from what I sense, the approach of yours seems outside the pure soto zen domain and have interest in debating against "religions" to make your self more secure about your practice. Is your zen practice not of soto zen? Why do you have so much enthusiasm in discussing "non-zennish" matters like Buddhism & Hinduism? Or, do you think the teachings of Buddhism & Hinduism are compatible with zen practice of your choice? Or, are you here to save us from Buddhism to a better realm of zen? Why are you here in this forum? What are you (a non-buddhist zen practitioner) doing here actively discussing things on a Theravada Buddhist forum? Do you want to learn from this forum, or do you want to teach the members of a Theravada Buddhist forum that anatta doctrine is a wrong one?

In short, why are you ( a non-buddhist zen practitioner) enthusiastically participating here on DWT?

Thanks.

:heart:
I like discussion. And it benefits both parties.
There is some relation to soto,but more yoga and tantrika.
I follow no buddhist or any other school. I'm a mystic.
Why you so interested in me?
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
Focus!
Zenny
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Joined: Wed May 12, 2021 12:09 pm

Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Zenny »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:15 pm
Zenny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:09 pm
I have. But your too pedantic and dogmatic to realise.
Every sensation you feel you also know it's you,and what the sensation could lead to. There is YOUR self.
It's obvious to me,and most normal people.
I’m afraid you haven’t. You’ve given assertions, circular reasoning and argumentum ad populum. Not that impressive to say the least. So far nothing you have said has lead me to believe your proposal. Anyways I’ve other things to be doing today.
I can't make the blind see matey.
And,your clichéd use of Greek sophistry terms is cute. Being an appeal to Greek authority! Though maybe your not ready for that talk? Run along mate. Go worship your Greeks your science and your sutras.
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
Focus!
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Zenny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:18 pm ..
And it benefits both parties.
...
Why you so interested in me?

Great. If you think your presence would benefit both parties, there would be less chance that both parties are just wasting time.

I'm interested because if I were an established pure soto zen practitioner I would rather not involve in some or most of these discussions here. Because, the unconditioned is said to be beyond the realm of logic.

:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
Zenny
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Zenny »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:54 pm
Zenny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:18 pm ..
And it benefits both parties.
...
Why you so interested in me?

Great. If you think your presence would benefit both parties, there would be less chance that both parties are just wasting time.

I'm interested because if I were an established pure soto zen practitioner I would rather not involve in some or most of these discussions here. Because, the unconditioned is said to be beyond the realm of logic.

:heart:
OK. I'm not a soto or any kind of institutional follower so I'm not curtailed by these concepts.
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
Focus!
auto
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by auto »

Zenny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:09 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:05 pm
Zenny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:02 pm
Its both. Simple. It ain't no concept,it's experience.
How is it both? As I say, when I experience pain there is just pain. I don’t detect any self in the pain. It’s just a sensation. I’ve never experienced a self in pain. What is it you have experienced in pain which leads you to claim feeling is a self? If it’s that which experiences pain, then what is this atta? You say it’s experience, but experience relates to a whole range of phenomena. Where is the atta in experience? You haven’t given a satisfactory answer as of yet, for something that’s so obvious.
I have. But your too pedantic and dogmatic to realise.
Every sensation you feel you also know it's you,and what the sensation could lead to. There is YOUR self.
It's obvious to me,and most normal people.
+1
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Watana
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Watana »

The Not-Soul teaching is not the core of original Buddhism. To the Buddha, the concept of Not-Soul (not "no-soul") was just a tool for him to convert the ascetics who believed in the Brahminic Soul.

The Brahminic Soul was conceived as eternity, bliss, consciousness and absolute truth. It is precisely because of this religious belief that the Buddha defined the constituents of our experience (and consciousness in particular) as ever-changing and unsatisfactory... meaning that they can not, by definition, be the Brahminic Soul. And since they're not the Soul, one should not grow attached to it.
SteRo
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by SteRo »

Zenny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:48 am The thing that unites buddhism and hinduism is Meditation as the tool for liberation.
With this in mind,why do YOU think Hindu meditators come up with atman,and modern buddhists with anatman?
A curious state of affairs.
There are different understandings of "atman". One is personal self and the other is "soul". While there are convincing reasons that negate both, there are only convincing reasons that affirm personal self but none that affirm soul.
The concept of "soul" has meanings only in religious contexts while the concept of personal self has indispensable meanings in everyday life.
I would not rely on religions when it comes to personal self but simply acknowledge that there are convincing reasons that negate personal self as there are convincing reasons that affirm personal self.
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
Zenny
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Zenny »

Watana wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 9:09 pm The Not-Soul teaching is not the core of original Buddhism. To the Buddha, the concept of Not-Soul (not "no-soul") was just a tool for him to convert the ascetics who believed in the Brahminic Soul.

The Brahminic Soul was conceived as eternity, bliss, consciousness and absolute truth. It is precisely because of this religious belief that the Buddha defined the constituents of our experience (and consciousness in particular) as ever-changing and unsatisfactory... meaning that they can not, by definition, be the Brahminic Soul. And since they're not the Soul, one should not grow attached to it.
So what would you say IS the soul?
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
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Zenny
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Zenny »

SteRo wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:55 am
Zenny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:48 am The thing that unites buddhism and hinduism is Meditation as the tool for liberation.
With this in mind,why do YOU think Hindu meditators come up with atman,and modern buddhists with anatman?
A curious state of affairs.
There are different understandings of "atman". One is personal self and the other is "soul". While there are convincing reasons that negate both, there are only convincing reasons that affirm personal self but none that affirm soul.
The concept of "soul" has meanings only in religious contexts while the concept of personal self has indispensable meanings in everyday life.
I would not rely on religions when it comes to personal self but simply acknowledge that there are convincing reasons that negate personal self as there are convincing reasons that affirm personal self.
What convincing reasons do you have that negate personal self?
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
Focus!
SteRo
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Location: Εὐρώπη Eurṓpē

Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by SteRo »

Zenny wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:57 am
SteRo wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:55 am
Zenny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:48 am The thing that unites buddhism and hinduism is Meditation as the tool for liberation.
With this in mind,why do YOU think Hindu meditators come up with atman,and modern buddhists with anatman?
A curious state of affairs.
There are different understandings of "atman". One is personal self and the other is "soul". While there are convincing reasons that negate both, there are only convincing reasons that affirm personal self but none that affirm soul.
The concept of "soul" has meanings only in religious contexts while the concept of personal self has indispensable meanings in everyday life.
I would not rely on religions when it comes to personal self but simply acknowledge that there are convincing reasons that negate personal self as there are convincing reasons that affirm personal self.
What convincing reasons do you have that negate personal self?
Show me your personal self.
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
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